25-03-2005 08:27									#91
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quote: According to a legislative staff analysis of the bill, the law would give students who think their beliefs are not being respected legal standing to sue professors and universities.

Hmm. I wonder if I'll be able to sue because of the constant ridicule of my 0.01% American Native heritage because of that stupid Seminole chant.

Hey, I believe I'm the center of the universe! What?? They don't?!? Ring up another lawsuit, Jocko. K'ching.

	25-03-2005 08:32									#92
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I don't know about neutral. I make my disdain for racism and bigotry pretty evident.

So shoot me.

	25-03-2005 08:34									#93
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quote: In my opinion and experience it's just the opposite. I don't think that any of my professors have been neutral. Even in business classes they express their opinions.

To clarify, there is a difference between expressing an opinion and teaching it. Economics is a tough one because contained within is a line between science and politics, so something that has been scientifically proven may seem to some a political opinion. The key thing here is a class in which the students opinion is given equal credence, providing it's a subjective field to any other.

	25-03-2005 08:36									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Professors don't decide what the truth is for anyone else but themselves. That's for the student to decide for themselves.

If I'm not wrong, then I objected against religious people had the right answer - actually I think it is a sign of intelligence if the student questions what the teacher tells as long as the student isn't biased by religous beliefs.

	25-03-2005 08:36									#95
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quote: I don't know about neutral. I make my disdain for racism and bigotry pretty evident.

Well fair enough... a classroom doesn't have statutory free speech because the teacher is trying to achieve something... a good teacher will allow free opinions as long as it works to that given end no?

	25-03-2005 08:37									#96
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I expressed my hatred for Kenny G and reality television in today's lecture. I also discovered that only two of the students in the class hate rap music enough to wish it were banned.

No one wanted Kenny G banned. I pretended to cry.

	25-03-2005 08:40									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy To clarify, there is a difference between expressing an opinion and teaching it. Economics is a tough one because contained within is a line between science and politics, so something that has been scientifically proven may seem to some a political opinion. The key thing here is a class in which the students opinion is given equal credence, providing it's a subjective field to any other.

First, nothing is scientifically proven in economics. Second, students can tell if a professor is going to judge them unfairly or not. Such professors don't illicit opinions from their students.

Take Agathon's bold student. Do you think he's worried about Agathon marking him for his different opinion? That student wouldn't speak up if he didn't trust Aggy.

	25-03-2005 08:42									#98
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Kenny G

I think his sax is haunted by the ghost of Axl Rose. The fact that said person is still (somehow) alive speaks volumes about Kenny G's ability to raise the dead by those horrific noises he makes.

	25-03-2005 08:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know about neutral. I make my disdain for racism and bigotry pretty evident. So shoot me.

Thats the problem with this law - if one of your students think that racism and bigotry are ok, then they can sue you..

Hope you escaped the shooting

	25-03-2005 08:50									#100
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quote: First, nothing is scientifically proven in economics. Second, students can tell if a professor is going to judge them unfairly or not. Such professors don't illicit opinions from their students.

Entropy?

The second bit makes no sense.

quote: Take Agathon's bold student. Do you think he's worried about Agathon marking him for his different opinion? That student wouldn't speak up if he didn't trust Aggy.

Bullshit. How many people answer back like they know better to people on this forum even though they're novices to relative experts? Trust doesn't come into it, which is as far as I'm going to say about a situation that I do not know... Ag's in a better position to comment than I.

	25-03-2005 08:51									#101
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quote: Take Agathon's bold student. Do you think he's worried about Agathon marking him for his different opinion? That student wouldn't speak up if he didn't trust Aggy.

A quick look tells me he's done OK so far and I gave him an extension on his first assignment. So he better be nice!!!

quote: Thats the problem with this law - if one of your students think that racism and bigotry are ok, then they can sue you..

Great....

quote: I think his sax is haunted by the ghost of Axl Rose. The fact that said person is still (somehow) alive speaks volumes about Kenny G's ability to raise the dead by those horrific noises he makes.

One of the students loves him and we make fun of her.

It's a fun class. We were discussing the benefits of paternalism and my experience as a teenager wanting to get an Ozzy Osbourne (I think it was him) tattoo and being told no by my mother.

The students thought that was funny, but it made me feel sad and old.

	25-03-2005 08:52									#102
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you are sad and old

	25-03-2005 08:59									#104
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What is sad is that most of these people were about 4 years old when Nevermind came out. So my pop culture references come off as really lame.

Jesus....

	25-03-2005 09:05									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Entropy?

What exactly do you mean?

quote: Bullshit. How many people answer back like they know better to people on this forum even though they're novices to relative experts? Trust doesn't come into it, which is as far as I'm going to say about a situation that I do not know... Ag's in a better position to comment than I.

When you are a student who is learning the subject of course you have to trust the professor as well as the other students if you are going to ask questions or voice your opinion. It's completely different here at Poly because it's not a learning environment.

Most students would just as well go through the whole course without saying a word, but there are also students who enjoy having a professor that offers his or her opinion, and who can even be challenged on it by a novice. It's good for the student.

	25-03-2005 09:13									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What is sad is that most of these people were about 4 years old when Nevermind came out. So my pop culture references come off as really lame. Jesus....

And what would you say about me ? Recently I found a box with old books that I haven't seen for 30 years. Most were crap, but I really enjoyed rereading some Captain Marryat books.

	25-03-2005 10:48									#107
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This is a really stupid law, thought I do not thinka any well reasoned, well debated arguement backed by good evidence should ever be graded badly due to content.

But I have nothing but contempt and scorn for any idiot who claims to be "indoctrinated". Anyone intellectually lazy enough to be indoctrinated should not have been allowed in a university in the first place.

	25-03-2005 10:53									#108
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In the interests of studying different cultures of course religions should be taught. But they should not be taught as truth, but as specific cultures.

As for creationism vs. evolution. If we gave equal weight to creation in biology, wouldn't we have to be fair to all the hundreds of different versions of it in the world today and in history? I mean, teaching that God created the earth in six days is just as plausible as teaching the aboriginal belief that a gigantic rainbow coloured snake is responsible for shaping the greater share of the world's topographical features.
.... or L. Ron Hubbard's belief that an alien called Xenu dumped millions of undesirables in a volcano and then hydrogen bombed it... trapping their spirits in the bodies of humans....

	25-03-2005 11:26									#109
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The comment about the fight over American high school textbooks is right on the mark. Here are two examples, one conservative and one liberal.

Multiple states have already removed/are in the process of removing the term "evolution" from their textbooks. It may be "gradual change over time" or they may add so-called Creation Science (look up that thread in OT is you need more data). Interestingly enough, many devout Christians are opposing this, as they realize that it will become a struggle over "who's Christianity" gets taught.

However, in some textbooks they attempt to teach history without Religion, in an attempt to avoid "offense". So now you have high school World Civilization courses that teach the crusades in one-two paragraphs, essentially stating there was a war in that region and so many thousands died. Of course that level of understanding creates a President who names his initial campaign against Iraq "Operation Crusade". And the oops - let's change it when you get a huge backlash from the Moslem World.

	25-03-2005 11:28									#110
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Wow, this sure is a retarded law. Between suppression of academic freedom, the reductions in NSF grants, reductions in federal financial aid and rising tuition in state schools, and severely limiting of student visas, I think that the Republicans are consciously trying to destroy the quality of US education, and hell any trace of academia in this country.

	25-03-2005 11:43									#111
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whaaaaaaah.

	25-03-2005 12:00									#112
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That's ridicule, not whining (unlike the retards who ran to nanny state because they couldn't stand listening dissenting opinions). To think that laws like this could be in any way beneficial to education or the academy takes a special kind of idiocy.

	25-03-2005 15:07									#113
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I can only pity the poor Americans.

	25-03-2005 16:55									#114
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc The comment about the fight over American high school textbooks is right on the mark. Here are two examples, one conservative and one liberal. Multiple states have already removed/are in the process of removing the term "evolution" from their textbooks. It may be "gradual change over time" or they may add so-called Creation Science (look up that thread in OT is you need more data). Interestingly enough, many devout Christians are opposing this, as they realize that it will become a struggle over "who's Christianity" gets taught. However, in some textbooks they attempt to teach history without Religion, in an attempt to avoid "offense". So now you have high school World Civilization courses that teach the crusades in one-two paragraphs, essentially stating there was a war in that region and so many thousands died. Of course that level of understanding creates a President who names his initial campaign against Iraq "Operation Crusade". And the oops - let's change it when you get a huge backlash from the Moslem World.

Right, there's been massive fighting over the content of history texts and the more politicized they get the worse the content gets (and then there's Japanese history texts which are apparently even worse than American ones). I am POSITIVE that the same kind of watering down and removing of all the interesting things that could concievably offend someone would happen in exactly the same manner in Florida's universities if this law is passed.

Its not left vs. right, its education vs. insanity.

	25-03-2005 19:36									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's ridicule, not whining (unlike the retards who ran to nanny state because they couldn't stand listening dissenting opinions). To think that laws like this could be in any way beneficial to education or the academy takes a special kind of idiocy.

The law is silly. (Actually I was too bored to read the first post, but I'll grant you that.) But to generalize to some "war on education by the Repubs" is silly, Omar.

	25-03-2005 20:07									#116
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The same problem exists in college textbooks as high school textbooks but to a lessor degree. That's why interaction with a knowledgable person with an opinion is important.

	25-03-2005 20:15									#117
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Boshko, I love your avatar. I must have it.

	25-03-2005 20:15									#118
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I wonder what Kid wrote?

	25-03-2005 20:16									#119
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When did you move south from NAS Jax, commie?

	25-03-2005 20:17									#120
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Two months ago, and I've been walking around with a smile on my face and a ten-foot boner since then. God! I love Ft. Lauderdale!