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Dis is offline Dis
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not necessarily right wing as Jesse Jackson shows. But they are christian fundamentalists.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 10:19
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Nader's a Christian fundamentalist? What about Tom Harkin?

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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
can anybody bring up any cites, that are at a minimum at the same level as the American Academy of Neurosciences, that indicate that she has AS MUCH CEREBRAL FUNCTION AS A DUMB HAMSTER. Thank you all, and good night.


NO!!!!

Your welcome, good night.

ACK!

Dis is offline Dis
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Nader's a Christian fundamentalist? What about Tom Harkin?


I really don't know much about Nader. I assume he's a christian. Most of those politicians are.

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Every doctor who matters and who wasn't brought in specifically by the opposition agrees she's in a PVS. The court apointed doctors, the independent doctors, and the husbands doctors all agree and it was only a few nut jobs from the right to life people who said other wise and no one found them to be at all creditable. Not that facts will stop the Neds of the world though.


Oerdin, do you believe that the "quality of life" issue dominates in this case so that we should err on the side of ending Terri's life, or anyone's life, under these cirmstances? The judge closed his first opinion in this case with these words:

"However, as Ms. Tyler noted when she tesitifed as to quality of life being the primary criteria in artificial life support matters, American want to "try if for awhile" but they do not wish to live on with no hope of improvement."

I have been listening to the pro-death camp for some time now, and this does seem to be their bottom line.

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 11:15
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The Supremes have denied the final appeal. Case closed.

Dis is offline Dis
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the problem with your argument is you are using Bush's word.

There is no err in this case. We know for certain she's a vegetable.

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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
The Supremes have denied the final appeal. Case closed.


It was too late anyway, even if she wasn't in PVS there has been too much damage.

Which, cynically, I think was at least part of the reason they denied it.

ACK!

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  Old Post 31-03-2005 11:30
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We should conduct a poll of those who believe that Terri should die.

I support the decision to remove the feeding tube because:

1. Terri is in a permanent vegetative state and has no hope to recover.

2. Terri clearly expressed expressed her wish not to continue living in a permanent vegetative state and we should respect her wish.

3. The supporters of Terri are primarily right wing fundies who are seeking to make a political issue this that would extend to issues other than a right to die, issues such as abortion.

4. The parents of Terri are right wing fundamentalists and should not be supported.

5. Republican politicians like Jeb Bush and President Bush support Terri.

6. Michael Schiavo has a right to get on with his life, he has a new wife and two children.

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 11:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
the problem with your argument is you are using Bush's word.

There is no err in this case. We know for certain she's a vegetable.


dissident, even if she were certainly in a permanent vegetative state, there remains significant issues regarding her intentions. That is why I'm asking those who want to see the tube pulled why they support that decision.

Dis is offline Dis
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I can care less what her intentions are. She's a vegetable.

You heard me right. I support everyone in similar condition being allowed to die.

Yes, yes I know. The argument will come up that that could lead to disabled people being put to death, and how I'm against disabled people. At least to me, the difference between PVS cases and normal disabled people are quite clear. I fail to see how anyone can confuse the two.

Rufus T. Firefly is offline Rufus T. Firefly
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
We should conduct a poll of those who believe that Terri should die.


Even framing it that way shows that you just don't get it. People don't want Terri to die. They do want her care to be decided for by her legal guardian, and for due process of law to be respected.

Given that, if you did force peopel to answer your misleading poll, I think you'd discover that people would overwhelmingly choose

quote:
1. Terri is in a permanent vegetative state and has no hope to recover.


Though, again, there should be another choice as well:

quote:
I support the decision to remove the feeding tube because:

...

7. It's none of my damned business. It is the business of her legal guardian; the law is clear about who that is, and this seems to be what he wants. And I support the rule of law.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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I support removing the feeding tube because I'm so ****ing tired of hearing about this case. End it all, please.

The Pope too.

Dis is offline Dis
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
We should conduct a poll of those who believe that Terri should die.

I support the decision to remove the feeding tube because:

1. Terri is in a permanent vegetative state and has no hope to recover.

2. Terri clearly expressed expressed her wish not to continue living in a permanent vegetative state and we should respect her wish.

3. The supporters of Terri are primarily right wing fundies who are seeking to make a political issue this that would extend to issues other than a right to die, issues such as abortion.

4. The parents of Terri are right wing fundamentalists and should not be supported.

5. Republican politicians like Jeb Bush and President Bush support Terri.

6. Michael Schiavo has a right to get on with his life, he has a new wife and two children.


didn't we already have a poll? Although that was worded differently. It asked what would you do if you were Terri Schiavo.

Ned is offline Ned
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One of the ramifications of this case is that the Vatican has clarified its stance on 'feeding tubes." The issue was cloudy until this month when the Pope issued his new directive to the church and all its organs that a feeding tube cannot be withdrawn once inserted. That binds all Catholics, including their hospitals, doctors, etc., etc., etc.

Dis is offline Dis
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Terri is no more catholic than I am.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:04
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I'll pick #7 as Rufus has articulated it .

Dis is offline Dis
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time for #4.

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:05
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I don't recall the poll. However, tell me whether the list properly reflects the gamut of the pro-"pull the plug" camp's views.

Last edited by Ned on 31-03-2005 at 12:11

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned

2. Terri clearly expressed expressed her wish not to continue living in a permanent vegetative state and we should respect her wish.



Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:07
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And.... scene!

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:25
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Well, I posted the poll and added two new answers per Rufus.

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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Jan 2005
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:51
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thread bout to be dead i guess

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  Old Post 31-03-2005 12:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
thread bout to be dead i guess


Yes.

But I heard that impeachment proceedings are underway in the Florida house against Greer. He could be faulted for two things, IMHO:

1) Not removing Michael Schiavo as guardian because he had a conflict of interest after the Guardian ad litem made that recommendation. It is fundamental law that Guardians should not have conflicts.

2) Blocking the Congressional subpoena to Terri, which is a Federal crime.

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 13:30
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The dissent in the most recent decision of the 11th Circuit is a good read. The dissent says that the Schindlers have raised a plausible due process claim in the lack of sufficient evidence in fact to support a decision that must be made with clear and convincing evidence regarding Terri's intent. This is all they have to do to be entitled to a stay so that the claim can be heard in full.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/...5ca11rhrng2.pdf

However, the two dissenters, Clinton appointees, did not prevail.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 14:18
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Pro-death?

You sure do know how to play silly word games Ned. The bottom line is Terri's wishes and she told four adults exactly what she wanted including her husband, her sister in law, and two of their friends. That's enough witnesses to determine Terri's wishes. The government needs to be kept out of this family affair but as usual the Republicans don't care for decency they only care for politics (as their memo shows).

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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ya its interesting how these new conservatives like Ted want governments to get off people's back, don't want to pay taxes etc. etc. blah blah bloody blah....


But as soon as it comes to one of their pet moral issues they want government intervention and everyone to live by their rules....

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Concervatives want big government they just want a big government to force their religious beliefs on to everyone else. Seriously, Republicans are the party of big government or else the deficit wouldn't explode and the government become ever more massive when ever the Republicans are in charge.

Democrats are the ones who actually try to control spending and balance the budget. Republicans just spend, spend, spend and give special interest groups endless handouts and tax breaks.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 31-03-2005 18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Pro-death?

You sure do know how to play silly word games Ned. The bottom line is Terri's wishes and she told four adults exactly what she wanted including her husband, her sister in law, and two of their friends. That's enough witnesses to determine Terri's wishes. The government needs to be kept out of this family affair but as usual the Republicans don't care for decency they only care for politics (as their memo shows).


You mean this memo?

quote:
March 21, 2005 — The following memo listing talking points on the Terri Schiavo case was circulated among Republican senators on the floor of the Senate.

This is an exact, full copy of the document obtained exclusively by ABC News and first reported Friday, March 18, 2005, by Linda Douglass on "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings."

S. 529, The Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act

Teri (sic) Schiavo is subject to an order that her feeding tubes will be disconnected on March 18, 2005 at 1p.m.

The Senate needs to act this week, before the Budget Act is pending business, or Terri's family will not have a remedy in federal court.

This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue.

This is a great political issue, because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a cosponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats.

The bill is very limited and defines custody as "those parties authorized or directed by a court order to withdraw or withhold food, fluids, or medical treatment."

There is an exemption for a proceeding "which no party disputes, and the court finds, that the incapacitated person while having capacity, had executed a written advance directive valid under applicably law that clearly authorized the withholding or or (sic) withdrawl (sic) of food and fluids or medical treatment in the applicable circumstances."

Incapacitated persons are defined as those "presently incapable of making relevant decisions concerning the provision, withholding or withdrawl (sic) of food fluids or medical treatment under applicable state law."

This legislation ensures that individuals like Terri Schiavo are guaranteed the same legal protections as convicted murderers like Ted Bundy.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Schiavo/story?id=600937

Now, I could type out everything that is wrong with this memo, but I'm lazy, so I'll just let this guy do it for me:

quote:
It seems the “Republican Talking Points” memo on Terri Schiavo is quite likely a fake:

The memo has three possible origins. The first possibility is that it was created by a low-level Republican staffer. This seems possible, but highly unlikely. Only a very dim-witted staffer would 1) copy word for word from the Traditional Values site, 2) get the Senate bill number wrong, 3) make a number of silly errors, including misspelling Mrs. Schiavo’s name as “Teri,” and 4) mix comments about political advantage into a “talking points” memo. Moreover, the Post and ABC have tried to create the impression that the memo is an official, high-level Republican strategy document. It clearly is not that.

The second possibility is that the memo was created by a lobbying group, presumably the Traditional Values Coalition, since most of the content of the memo comes word for word from their web site. But the controversial political observations–"the pro-life base will be excited,” etc.–are inappropriate for an organization like the Coalition. They sound as if they are written from the internal perspective of the Republican party ("this is a tough issue for Democrats").

The third possibility is that the memo is a Democratic dirty trick. At the moment, that looks most likely. It is easy to picture how the document could have been constructed. A Democratic staffer wants to put in some language that will sound authentic for a Republican memo. What does he do? He steals four paragraphs from the Coalition’s web site. Then he adds the explosive political observations which are the whole point of the exercise–weirdly out of place in a “talking points” memo, but good politics for the Democrats.

Further, this could explain why the scanned version of the document is different from the one that ABC News originally obtained. The document was apparently corrected in three respects between the time it was given to ABC and when it was leaked to a left-wing web site. Who cleaned up the memo? Presumably the person or persons who created it. The site that put up the jpeg of the memo said that “a source on Capitol Hill…leaked” it to them. The source was presumably a Democratic staffer. If the document was a genuine Republican memo, would the Democrat who leaked it onto the web take the trouble to re-create it, correcting typos? No. The leaker would only correct errors if he himself was the source of the memo.

And finally: as the New York Times has reported, the only people who have actually been seen passing out the memo are Democratic aides.

The evidence we have so far is not conclusive, but it points in the direction of a dirty trick by the Democrats. The onus is certainly on Mike Allen of the Post and ABC News, if they actually have evidence that the memo is genuine, to tell us what that evidence is. In any event, however, the suggestion that this is some kind of high-level Republican strategy memo is ludicrous.


http://www.sgtstryker.com/index.php...her-phony-memo/

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Question  Old Post 31-03-2005 19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
ya its interesting how these new conservatives like Ted want governments to get off people's back, don't want to pay taxes etc. etc. blah blah bloody blah....
When did Ted turn conservative? I got the impression from his posts that he was turning into a bigger Democratic partisan than Oerdin.

 
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