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Lord Nuclear
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
The UN also decided Israel's boundaries. They are not the borders it currently occupies. That's stealing other people's land, whereas it's formation was not, IMHO. |
True, but the United States also "stole" land. As did Britan, and France, and Germany, and Russia, and Holland, and Spain, and Portugal, and China, and Japan, and Vietnam, and Greece, and Italy, and Turkey, just to name a few. 
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
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I have no way of judging the content of these articles, but this is the type of article being published in the US.
From the Miami Herald...
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiheral.../printstory.jsp
quote:
Posted on Sun, Oct. 10, 2004
IMMIGRATION
French Jews escape to United States
Anti-Semitism is on the rise in their homeland.
BY ELINOR J. BRECHER
ebrecher@herald.com
Philippe Goldenstein, 39, once a bodyguard for France's Grand Rabbi Joseph Sitruk, doesn't scare easily.
So when his yarmulke drew hostility on the streets of his native Paris, where anti-Semitic attacks are escalating, he fought back. ''One Arab on his bicycle called me a dirty Jew,'' he said. ``I had to beat him up.''
But like many French Jews who have settled in South Florida recently, Goldenstein and his wife, Katia, began to fear for their children, now 2 and 3 years old.
''Since the intifada started [in 2002], things are degrading every month a little more,'' he said. ``They are getting violent with the kids. This is not how we are brought up to live.''
The couple emigrated in October 2002, leaving behind family and a busy restaurant. Earlier this year, they opened Weber Cafe, a kosher, 36-seat dairy restaurant in Aventura's Waterways Shops.
''In Paris, we had a big hall for the weddings, the bar mitzvahs, a tea room, my apartment -- I didn't need to come here,'' said Katia, 31. ''But I'm afraid for my children and when my husband goes to shul in a kippa'' -- Hebrew for yarmulke, or skull cap.
She believes that 1,500 years of Jewish life in France is ''finished,'' and that government measures to combat anti-Semitism come ''too late'' for France's 600,000 Jews.
The French Interior Ministry said 2002 was one of the worst years in the past decade for anti-Semitic acts and threats, with 932 reported. Things improved in 2003: 588 acts and threats, with 91 arrests and trials. The numbers are again rising, as they are in Belgium and Holland.
The Interior Ministry reported 510 acts or threats this year: assaults in the streets and subways; schools and synagogues firebombed; cemeteries vandalized. By last fall, French Grand Rabbi Joseph Sitruk was warning Jewish men to cover their yarmulkes with baseball caps.
While France's six million Muslims also have been the targets of racism, authorities blame most attacks against Jews and their institutions on disaffected immigrants from Muslim-dominated countries. The French government has spoken out strongly against anti-Semitism, mindful of the country's troubled history with its own Jewish citizens.
After Nazi Germany invaded France in 1940, the collaborationist Vichy government passed anti-Semitic laws and rounded up thousands of Jews for deportation, among them some who had fled to presumed safety in France from Germany. An estimated 90,000 died.
In a July 8 speech, French President Jacques Chirac said ``odious and despicable acts of hatred are sullying our country. Discrimination, anti-Semitism, racism, all kinds of racism, are again spreading insidiously. . . . They are unworthy of France.''
Ten days later, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made a controversial plea to all French Jews to make aliyah -- literally to ''go up'' -- to the Jewish state ``immediately.''
More than 2,000 have done so this year, according to Jewish resettlement organizations.
It's hard to say how many have come to the United States. French authorities are legally prohibited from tracking emigration by religion, said Yann Battefort, a spokesman for the French Consulate in Miami, where some 10,000 French citizens are voluntarily registered.
Vanessa Brakha, 25, and her husband, Michael, 29, were married 14 months ago and left France soon after, for the sake of their children yet unborn, they said.
GROWING COMMUNITIES
The Brakhas recently opened the strictly kosher Micky's Deli on Harding Avenue in Surfside, adjacent to Bal Harbour. The communities, with a half-dozen kosher restaurants, form the nucleus of French-Jewish life in Miami-Dade County.
Vanessa Brakha once again wears the Star of David with tiny diamonds she'd put away.
Like the Brakhas and the Goldensteins, most French Jews coming to Miami-Dade are Sephardim: of North African or Spanish/Portuguese descent.
Rabbi Yosef Galimidi of Miami Beach's Shaare Ezra Sepharadic Congregation, estimates ''98 percent'' of French newcomers are Sephardim.
''We have had visitors from France inquiring more and more what are the business opportunities, the Jewish schools, the community support. They are looking to Florida for the multiculturalism,'' he said.
Given visa requirements, most of those coming are relatively wealthy.
The Brakhas came on E-2 visas, requiring a $150,000 business investment. Vanessa holds a master's degree in finance and was an assistant communications director for Estee Lauder, the cosmetics company. Michael ran a successful Paris restaurant.
Some Jewish immigrants saw the handwriting on the wall years ago, like Laurent and Nicole Kadouch, who came in the mid-1990s. The couple, of Moroccan, Algerian and Eastern European ancestry, own an Aventura town house.
''Thank God I had the chance to leave,'' said Laurent, 41, an Aventura importer and kitchen designer.
But he also disagreed with Sharon's advice and said French Jews ``are very divided about it. They have a bad reaction because it made them more isolated. They already cannot be open about their Judaism.''
Franca and Luciano Benmoussa, both 63, immigrated 18 years ago: ''After 12, 13 years of anti-Semitism in France, we have enough and decide to leave for our children,'' now 35 and 33. ``We have a very Jewish name.''
They own Piccolo Cafe in North Miami Beach and have become U.S. citizens.
The problem is not that the government hasn't instituted tough laws, said Shimon Samuels, director for international liaison at the Paris office of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. ``They don't filter down to the judges in the courts.''
SAD CASE
He cited the case of a 15-year-old Jewish boy from Sevran who was beaten by Muslim fellow students at a public school. Not only did a judge overrule the school's decision to boot the assailants, he assessed the victim's family the court costs.
''So what is the alternative?'' asked Samuels. ``They will leave to a place where they feel more secure.''
He added that ''breadwinner'' commuting is now so common between Israel and France that ``you can't get a flight on a Sunday evening from Tel Aviv to Paris, or on Thursday from Paris to Tel Aviv.''
But Florida ``is a different story. That's a real migration. Getting a green card and the logistics are more difficult.''
Katia Goldenstein said she and her husband came on L-1 visas, originally designed for international corporations seeking to transfer foreign executives to the United States. To meet visa requirements, the original Weber Cafe in Paris must remain open. They left it with relatives -- which Katia misses: ``I am here alone. I have two babies. I don't speak English. I cry every day.'' |
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I've never viewed Europe as a continent to be antisemitic. Some countries seem more antisemitic than others. Poland seems pretty damn antisemitic, while the UK doesn't seem antisemitic much, for instance.
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There are pretty some antisemites in Poland. I didn't think it's anywhere around significancy until I entered fora of Gazeta Wyborcza. It's one of the most (up till recently the most, and lets put it this way: the most popular of the decent ones) popular daily papers in Poland. The chief of the paper is Jew, and there are other Jews working there, and perhaps that's why there are a lot of antisemitic remarks on this forum. I do think that 99% of them come from a limited group of people. Certainly this forum does not reflect the overall picture. I find it strange that so many people seem to have far right-winged views there. Either they're making artificial crowd (which is easy, You don't have to register), or this site has been invaded by Poles of Canada and/or USA.
On the other hand, I'm not suprised with that people dislike Jews sometimes. I recall my first threads here in which I had to fight against ones puting Poland in one row with Germany and Austria...
Jews often show a great deal of unnecessary antipathy, ignorance and lack of tact in Polish-Jewish relations,
and it's often a cause of a mild dislike of Jews that You'd probably label as antisemitism.
Not that a true antisemitism does not exist. I've had a moderate pleasure of riding in a bus next to an elderly man who tried to convince a lady sitting next to him to his theories. The lady was seemingly tired of this and was trying to make him stop, but He did not. He had an interesting theory. You see, in year 2003, some artist put an artificial palm tree on a crossroad of two main streats in Warsaw. The guy claimed that it was done
- to commemorate 35th anniversary of emigration of Polish Jews in order to settle on Golan Hills
- to make the artist (Jewish of course) pleased, so that the view from his window reminded Tel Aviv
(oh, and the burgermeister is Jewish as well according to this guy).
And recently, the artificial leaves of the ppalm tree were taken away. I don't know why, I thought it was because they got dirty or covered with snow or whatever.
The guy did know why. You see, the palm tree got "circumsised" to commemorate the rule of the circumcised and to stand there (untranslatable, unfortunatelly, lets say it means: to offend) "na pohybel"
citizens of Warsaw and of Poland.
I'd gladly to continue journey in the fiary-tale world, but I had to step out of the bus 
Anyway, such guys are definitely just weirdoes, and He himself claimed with a smile that people always react
like this lady to his stories,
but such people exist.
Having that said, I don't think the affairs look too bad.
There are pretty some reknown people of Jewish origin.
Current Polish ministry of foreign affairs (Rotfeld) is Jewish, for example.
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BlackCat
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I don't think that there are much antisemitism in Denmark. There has been one or two incidents with grave vandalism in the last twenty years tageting jewish graves, but in the same period it has also happened for muslim and christian places.
Politcally there hasn't been any kind of this. We have a Nazi party in Denmark, but they are so few and so dumb that noone cares what they say - every time they try to stick their ugly heads up, they are cut down by ordinary people. The only political people here that resembles antisemitism is the left wing, but I guess that it's a reflex. If US had supported the palestineans, they would have supported Israel.
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Brent
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Every modern nation is equally guilty of stealing land. I certainly don't mind disproportionate Jewish influence. The Q word is very much hated in Norway.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Every modern nation is equally guilty of stealing land. I certainly don't mind disproportionate Jewish influence. The Q word is very much hated in Norway. |
I don't understand this "stealing land" statement - can you be more specific ?
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Lord Nuclear
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
I find it strange that so many people seem to have far right-winged views there. Either they're making artificial crowd (which is easy, You don't have to register), or this site has been invaded by Poles of Canada and/or USA. |
Erm... This forum leans heavily to the left, as you can see through the political polls we take. And most of the right-wingers aren't conservative, but moderates.
quote:
On the other hand, I'm not suprised with that people dislike Jews sometimes. I recall my first threads here in which I had to fight against ones puting Poland in one row with Germany and Austria... |
This is quite a racist statement. Based on a few opinions on Apolyton, you generalize all Jews? From how I read that statement, you were calling most Jews stupid.
quote:
Jews often show a great deal of unnecessary antipathy, ignorance and lack of tact in Polish-Jewish relations,
and it's often a cause of a mild dislike of Jews that You'd probably label as antisemitism. |
I'm sorry, how did you come to the conclusion that many Jews are ignorant with regards to Polish-Jewish relations? Have you met all Jews? And also, a mild dislike of any race/culture/religion, is racist. Saying I don't like Ariel Sharon is fine, but saying I have a dislike for Jews is anti-semitism.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:29
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quote:
True, but the United States also "stole" land. As did Britan, and France, and Germany, and Russia, and Holland, and Spain, and Portugal, and China, and Japan, and Vietnam, and Greece, and Italy, and Turkey, just to name a few. |
Yes, but it's no argument for one rapist to say: "there were 25 rapes in my city this year that I didn't do".
Anyway, how many of these constitute occupation with complete denial of civil rights?
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Yes, but it's no argument for one rapist to say: "there were 25 rapes in my city this year that I didn't do".
Anyway, how many of these constitute occupation with complete denial of civil rights? |
How come that you only critisice Israel as a "raper" and not the other countries ?
I don't think that there was much liberty in those areas that was "raped" by the soviet - if I'm not wrong, then it was suicide to try to claim that you had aany rights at all.
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Brent
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Yes, Quisling.
You think the original Germans, Norse, Angles, Saxons, Franks, etc. were the first to live in their respective modern countries? What about Celts, Saami, etc.?
Not all religions are races. Prejudice encompasses more than racism.
Didn't the first Germans most likely kill whoever was there before them?
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Brent
Yes, Quisling.
You think the original Germans, Norse, Angles, Saxons, Franks, etc. were the first to live in their respective modern countries? What about Celts, Saami, etc.?
Not all religions are races. Prejudice encompasses more than racism.
Didn't the first Germans most likely kill whoever was there before them? |
No, and ?
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BlackCat
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Did you really expect that a thread about antisemtism wouldn't involve what happens in the ME ?
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Brent
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Hey, I go with the flow. To some degree I conider anything brought up that eventually leads back logically to the original topic, ontopic, and anything that's more closely related to the original topic than anything else that belongs in the subforum. I've never carried this philosophy far enough to get in trouble yet.
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27-03-2005 05:33
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