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Brent
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What about the British colonists of America, Canada, Australia, and South Africa? Britain did its colonization long ago and has had plenty of opportunity to do what it has to make things right. Israel is not innocent, but we could be slightly more understanding.
Arabs have plenty of homeland, and plenty of roughly equally valued holy sites. The Jews have only Israel and Jerusalem. The two peoples should get along.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
Erm... This forum leans heavily to the left, as you can see through the political polls we take. And most of the right-wingers aren't conservative, but moderates.
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Please read my post with some attention. It was not about THIS forum.
quote:
This is quite a racist statement. Based on a few opinions on Apolyton, you generalize all Jews? From how I read that statement, you were calling most Jews stupid.
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- where's the racism here?
- where am I writing about all Jews?
- where am I writing about my own perceivement of Jews?
- You're reading my statement wrong. Where am I writing something about anyone's stupidity? Even Hitler didn't claim Jews are stupid 
quote:
I'm sorry, how did you come to the conclusion that many Jews are ignorant with regards to Polish-Jewish relations? Have you met all Jews?
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Can You distinguish between "many" and "all"?
I've comen to it after activity in several internet fora, and after reading and hearing and watching news through my life.
quote:
And also, a mild dislike of any race/culture/religion, is racist. Saying I don't like Ariel Sharon is fine, but saying I have a dislike for Jews is anti-semitism. |
Any generalisation is unfair to some extent, but it's not like every generalisation is bad or even not reasonable.
For example, statement that I quoted by DanS is generalisation as well. However, whether it's right or not, it's supposed to focus our attention on a problem.
It may be unfair to think that Nigerians have black skin in general, because perhaps there are some of European descent, but it's an information that helps us in our lives.
If a nation exists, You can have feelings concerning it.
To defend your point well, You'd have to come to a conclusion that nations do not exist, which is completely OK, but as You seem to believe in existance of nations, it'd be somehow strange to forbid people opinion on them.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
How come that you only critisice Israel as a "raper" and not the other countries ? |
[QUOTE]
How little you know me.
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Yep, I only know what you state here.
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But there are precious few of those people who are both occupied and denied civil rights.
For example, one could argue that the British illegally took a great deal of Maori land in the colonization of New Zealand (they certainly did, but by no means all of the land was stolen).
NZ Maori have full political rights and can petition the courts for redress of past wrongs (which they are actively doing). There is no substantial movement for "keeping New Zealand white". In any case the aim of the British colonists was to found a new state of both peoples (that's enshrined in our founding document).
That's a **** of a lot different from a bunch of people flooding into an area with the express purpose of displacing and disenfranchising the local inhabitants, and then keeping them under apartheid occupation.
Israel is an absolute disgrace. It goes against the whole of the Jewish religious tradition and shows how easy it is for people to become what they hate if it suits them.
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Why was it illegal that the British took Maori land ?
The jewish settlements in the occupied areas are just some fanatics wet dreams based upon religous fantasies but hasn't anythibg to do with Israel as such. If that was the case, they wouldn't had sufficed with occupying the areas, they would have claimed ownership of the areas - if I'm not wrong, they have done this in the golans.
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I don't think that there was much liberty in those areas that was "raped" by the soviet - if I'm not wrong, then it was suicide to try to claim that you had aany rights at all. |
I'm not Stalinist. |
Maybe not, but I can't rember you oppose against this.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Every group tends to focus on the specific brand of racism that affects it. And the Jews are probably the best established minority, which is why it is mainstream to single out antisemitism. |
Plus, you can't forget that the Jews control the media... it makes it that much easier for them to emphasize antisemitism.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
The UN also decided Israel's boundaries. They are not the borders it currently occupies. That's stealing other people's land, whereas it's formation was not, IMHO. |
Isn't that called conquest? I don't see anything wrong with that. The Arab nations picked a fight, they lost, Israel took their territory. I don't see why Israel has any duty to give the land back. Conquered nations lose territory. Where are the anti-Zionists *****ing that Poland stole German lands after WW2? Where are the people demanding that Stettin be returned? Where are those demanding that Russia return Königsberg back to Germany? When you lose wars, you lose land. I have no problem with that.
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Edan
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European jews Speak out
They'll always have paris
quote:
Of the 15- to 18-year-olds polled, three-quarters say they do not see a future for themselves in France, and half have suffered from some form of anti-Semitism in the past five years. |
Russian MPs want ban on Jewish groups
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Russia's nationalist lawmakers have asked the prosecutor general to ban all Jewish organisations because of their "extremist" behaviour in a call that coincided with ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz. |
A darkness falls on England
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When Prince Harry, third in line to the throne, was pictured wearing a Nazi costume, a newspaper survey found that more than half of British adults between 18 and 24 could see no problem with the outfit. According to a BBC poll last December, 45 percent of British adults claimed never to have heard of Auschwitz. |
Last edited by Edan on 27-03-2005 at 09:33
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Brent
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there are differences between an entire people, its government, its history, its religion, and the cultural values they are taught.
Oh, and doesn't everyone know that the Maori are Israelites anyway?? And that the House of Israel is indeed supposed to rule the world?? Palestine is for Judah, the Americas are for what was the Northern Kingdom and for the Japhethites.
Why can't the Palestinians merge with surrounding Arab nations? Shouldn't the Jews have a land of their own?
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shawnmmcc
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First of all, the Jewish settlements are there as much for water rights as for territory. Do I need to put all those cites in again 
Secondly, and exactly to the point, anti-Zionist does not make one anti-Semitic. My wife loathes Zionism. She's also Jewish, well accepted at the local synagogue, and raising our little girl Jewish. WTF.
She also heavily disapproves of the actions of the Israeli government, as do I. The people here protesting that there is nothing really wrong with Israeli actions on the West Bank have roughly four arguments.
1) It was their land. Except it hasn't been for over a millenia, and if you want to go back beyond that - why not determine who still has the genetic markers for Canannites, and let them have the land. Inconsistant application of an argument.
2) God promised it to them. The Muslims have a book saying Mohammed told them that they should always be in charge of any land they live in, over the non-Muslims. Both have a Holy Book ceding them control. You prefer the Jewish claim? Then you are not arguing logic, but faith, i.e. whose holy book is better?
3) The surrounding countries don't give as many rights to their citizens. True, unless you change it to inhabitants. Then it becomes not true. Any citizen in the surrounding Arab countries has more access to water, schools, and freedom of movement than the Palestinians. Which means that Israel is engaged in Jim Crow domestically (internally a majority treating a minority as second class citizens) and engaged in apartheid (minority treating majorty) on the West Bank.
4) Every country is based on taking comeone else's land. First of all, Agathon made a very good point via New Zealand, etc. Secondly, Israel was created since the Geneva Conventions. Thirdly, Israel is in violation of many agreed upon conventions reference the treatment of civilians and their property in occupied areas. Fourth, Israel has expropriated land to which others had clear title simple based on their religious affiliation, i.e. they were not Jews. I believe that is called racism.
I am similiarly anti-Zionist (as is my wife). I am not anti-Semitic, and I would support a secular Israel where Muslim and Jewish inhabitants have fully equal rights. I am uncertain as to whether Europe is more anti-semitic than the US, though I will grant that it is definitively more strongly anti-Zionist. Considering the statements I have heard in the American Bible Belt about how they would never date one of those people (whenever I discuss my wife's Judaism) I would not be so quick to say the US is less anti-Jewish - though they could care less if a Jew converts and becomes a Baptist, because then they are saved. In which case they might still be semitic (if they were Sephardic to begin with) but no longer Jewish. Which makes the local religious community intolerant of other religions - it is - but not intolerant of other races. The problem is that Judaism is that odd, implicit mix of the two which makes seperating those issues difficult, if not impossible.
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shawnmmcc
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I know there are articles in the local Jewish congregational newspapers both pro-Israel, and articles about the peace movement and treating the Palestinians better. I'm not sure it those count for what you are looking for.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:29
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quote:
a great mistake that caused almost 60 years of conflict in the region. |
I would argue that the 'great mistake' was the fact that Britain neglected the Arab masses it once ruled and allowed dictators to take them over. The Arab dictators then indoctrinated their people to hate Israel so as to not be so focussed on the inside of their country. This, in my opinion, would be a much bigger factor in the 60 years of conflict in this region--because it was openly encouraged by Arab dictators seeking to brainwash their people. It's worked rather well, actually, this propaganda that has been spouted by them--that Israel is the cause and not the excuse.
In my opinion, there is not so much 'new' European antisemitism. Antisemitism, like all racism, will unfortunately always exist. There are always going to be people with messed up minds or people so blind or ignorant as to accept racism. However, there is a definitely a sort of backlash against Israel, and perhaps Jews in general, over the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. For some this is perhaps a cheap emotional trick, something to make them feel less guilty about past wrongs committed by their ancestors. It stems mainly from a lack of knowledge about the situation there, and a willingness to accept the almost stereotypical 'story of opression' without looking any further. That is something understandable, almost---something easy to do, rather than thinking, just sympathising with what is the weaker side on a purely irrational and emotional level.
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Zulu Elephant
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My 14 year old sister thinks the Palestinians get the raw deal out of the situation. Is she antisemitic?
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Dr Strangelove
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I think that the Europeans tried to leave the Arab states in the hands of constitutional monarchies, but could not control what happened after independence. You also have to consider that many of the Arab nations had been protectorates, not full fledged colonies.
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Edan
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More Articles:
quote:
Forty-eight percent of Europeans polled in Italy, France, Belgium, Austria, Spain, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Germany, and Britain said that Jews have "a particular relationship with money." |
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1075114458901
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The EU suppressed a report last year by German academics concluding that Arab gangs were largely responsible for a sudden surge in the anti-Jewish violence, allegedly because the findings were politically unpalatable. |
link
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A poll published Monday showed that Italians have mixed feelings about Israel and Jews, with 22 percent of those polled saying fellow Jewish citizens are not "real Italians," and 51 percent saying Jews have a different mentality and way of life from the rest of Italians. |
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1068446567110
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Anti-Semitic feeling has been revealed in a poll in Italy which shows more than 46 cent of Europeans consider Jews to have "a different mentality" from the rest of the population. |
http://news.independent.co.uk/europ...sp?story=485085
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Edan:
I have also noticed that there is no mention at all about society's reaction to antisemitism, except in an article where they say society at large doesn't care.
My question is: do you also get to read articles in the mainstream press that let the "other side" of the Jewish communities speak out? Do you get to read articles that speak about society's outrage against antisemitic scandals? |
Most of the reactions tend to come from politicians/leaders, and they tend to come in several flavors - that there is no antisemitism or that it's largely overblown, that there is anti-semitism, but that it's due to Israel (as if that is any kind of excuse for performing antisemitic acts in Europe), that it is caused by tensions from the muslim minority - which may be part of the truth, but it also ignores that polls show anti-semitic views amoung larger percentage that can be attributed to just the muslim minority - and that they are concerned by the anti-semitism and will work to combat it.
Last edited by Edan on 27-03-2005 at 20:52
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
True, but the United States also "stole" land. As did Britan, and France, and Germany, and Russia, and Holland, and Spain, and Portugal, and China, and Japan, and Vietnam, and Greece, and Italy, and Turkey, just to name a few. |
Yes, but it's no argument for one rapist to say: "there were 25 rapes in my city this year that I didn't do".
Anyway, how many of these constitute occupation with complete denial of civil rights? |
All of them, probably.
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27-03-2005 07:33
Live and learn 
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