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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Zionism means the belief in the moral and historical right of Jews to have a national homeland in Israel, and a respect the religious and national link and heritage of Jewish holy places (temple mount, hebron graves, nablus graves etc). |
If you define it like this, I don't see how antizionism could be seen as antisemitism then. According to such a definition, being in favour of zionism would be to actually favour one population (the Jews) over another.
If you link antizionism and antisemitism (which you haven't explicitely done, but Ned has, so this comment is adressed to him), a good analogy would be to say that anybody who opposes the Serbian domination over Kosovo is generally prejudices/racist/bigoted toward the Serbian people. This propaganda was probably fed to the Serbians, but it doesn't make it true.
quote:
Do you think that Israel shouldn't be destroyed because you think it is morally and historically right that Israel should exist at its present location? Or do you simply think that destroying it would be too bothersome / unstabilizing? |
I think Israel has no ancient historical right to exist. The very notion of ancient historical right is bunk. However, Israel has a modern "historcial right" to exist, in that the country is built already, there are Israelis living there for generations, and it is their land. The Israelis shouldn't see their land stripped away.
In any case, as much as I support the continued existence of the Israeli State (which is a question of principle and not mere tactics, although my principles aren't "zionist" according to your definition), I can't wait to see the country finally become the Israeli country instead of the Jewish country. The Israelis would benefit immensely from not allowing a millenia-old tradition to interfere in their politics.
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Brent
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So you want to decide for the Jews what's good for them? Okay then, what's good for them?
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Brent
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My understanding was that the Cherokee and Navajo had their own autonomous governments but weren't recognized as nations like the United States is. Nunavut was created specifically for the Inuit of that region. So you are saying Israel should be a land for the Jews but governed by someone else? Are you saying the Navajo and Cherokee shouldn't have much say in their nations?
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dannubis
again, and again and again...
the average european doesn't want the state of israel to be extinguished. far from it. however, most of us do not blindly believe the fact that any action taken by the israeli state is morally superior or inferior to the actions taken by palestinians.
and the big thing is that towards the state of israel a certain amount of accountablility can be applied, whereas towards shady terrorist organisations it's impossible to do this.
personally i don't mind if they blow up a terrorist attacker. i applaud the fact that sometimes they can and do get a big shot in a terrorist organisation. however, once 'collateral damage' is accepted, you have descended to the same level as terrorists. and we don't deal with terrorists, now do we ? |
Dannubis, I would feel a lot more comforted if the Europeans would make statements to the effect that they support Israel's right to exist. I do not recall such a statement, if ever one was made by any European either here, or on the news.
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DAVOUT
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AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I assume this was the case as well in 1967 when the Arabs united to destroy Israel and the French, among others, embargoed Israel. |
quote:
After a period of relative calm, border incidents between Israel and Syria, Egypt, and Jordan increased during the early 1960s, with Palestinian guerrilla groups actively supported by Syria. In May, 1967, President Nasser, his prestige much eroded through his inaction in the face of Israeli raids, requested the withdrawal of UN forces from Egyptian territory, mobilized units in the Sinai, and closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israel. Israel (which had no UN forces stationed on its territory) responded by mobilizing.
The escalation of threats and provocations continued until June 5, 1967, when Israel launched a massive air assault that crippled Arab air capability. With air superiority protecting its ground forces, Israel controlled the Sinai peninsula within three days and then concentrated on the Jordanian frontier, capturing Jerusalem's Old City (subsequently annexed), and on the Syrian border, gaining the strategic Golan Heights. The war, which ended on June 10, is known as the Six-Day War.
The Suez Canal was closed by the war, and Israel declared that it would not give up Jerusalem and that it would hold the other captured territories until significant progress had been made in Arab-Israeli relations. The end of active, conventional fighting was followed by frequent artillery duels along the frontiers and by clashes between Israelis and Palestinian guerrillas.
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I dont know if Israel was embargoed, but the above description does not show that Israel was short of material, and many think that the 6 days war was a splendid military accomplishment.
And this does not change the fact that Israel had been recognized previously.
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Edan
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quote:
ned, in 1967 israel was de facto the aggressor right |
Only in a warped reality.
The Arab countries had
- Egypt had blockaded the straits of Tiran, an act of war n violation of international agreements, and threatening to cripple Israel's economy.
- Massed forces on Israel's borders, forcing Israel to put it's military on alert - something that was not feasable to continue indefinately.
- Egypt expelled UN forces from the Sinai.
- numerous terrorist raids.
- Syria regularly fired artillary at Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights.
- Their leaders made speeches vowing Israel's destruction
- Egypt had planned for an invasion of Israel that was postponed at the last minute because of pressure from the Soviet Union. Israel captured several Egyptians that had crossed it's borders and became aware of this plan.
Ned:
quote:
I assume this was the case as well in 1967 when the Arabs united to destroy Israel and the French, among others, embargoed Israel. |
Including the US.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I'd like those people who think Europeans are antisemitic (I dunno if it includes you or not) to tell us why they believe that. |
It depends upon whether you mean as a continent or body politic (and since when have Europeans as a whole EVER agreed on anything) or individual anti -semites.
You would have to distinguish between religious and political anti-semitism too.
The religious anti-semitism has been there since Visigothic Iberia and Justinian's Byzantine Empire; it survived into the Dark Ages and early mediaeval period, succoured by a part of the Roman Catholic Church that in many respects transferred its fears about aspects of its own faith onto others, such as the Muslims and Jews.
It flourished in the crusading era of the newly secure Western European states, with the massacres in the German states (the Second Crusade beginning with a massacre of Jews in the Rhineland) massacres in French territory and in England.
Later on of course, the Inquisition in Spain and Italy would also persecute Jews and converted Jews.
Fortunately there were the occasional enlightened rulers, like Alfonso the Wise of Castile, individual Popes, individual bishops, archbishops and dukes, Casimir the Great of Poland, Oliver Cromwell and the citizens of the French Republic who emancipated the Jews (although their intent may have been not entirely as honourable as it may seem- they may have wanted the Jews to disappear as a distinct religious or ethnic minority in a completely French identity).
Then of course you also have the political version of anti-semitism- a product of the modernization and industrialization of Europe, with Jews being identified with capitalists, bankers, 'cosmopolitans' et cetera (this also hearkens back to the days of mediaeval/Renaissance Jewish money lenders and pawn brokers who occupied a useful position between either Christians who wanted to engage in business or Christians and Muslims who wanted to engage in business, neither of which faiths, theoretically, should profit from interest).
This took off in France and Germany and pretty much ran alongside persistent religious/racial anti-semitism in Central and Eastern Europe and European Russia.
Of course it hasn't always been just Europeans who persecuted Jews- despite greater tolerance for Jews within Islam, occasional Islamic movements/peoples (Almohads and Almoravids in the Maghreb and Spain, Mamelukes and Shi'ites and so forth) have also from time to time persecuted the Jews usually when the religious revival is freshly wrought as it were.
Then of course you have the anti-semitism you see in Australia and the United States linked with racist/Aryan/Roman Catholic political groupings and avowedly anti-Zionist leftist groups who just occasionally can't seem to tell the difference between being anti-Israel and anti- 'the Jew'.
With enemies like those, Jews clearly have something going for them.....
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30-03-2005 05:57
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