28-03-2005 04:32									#31
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I haven't played the game since a few weeks after release, so I don't remember all the background sounds, but those were probably good too

I haven't found that many great horror movies, but most of those I've seen are descent (Only started watching horror movies a few years ago, so I haven't seen that many). My favorite horror movies are those from that famous writer I don't remember the name of... Steven, Stephen, something like that I believe...
As I saw that they were going to make a movie based on Doom I got a little excitet (I like such devil'ish stories), but after reading the basic story it sounds too much like it's going to be a cheap rip-off of the Resident Evil movies (almost the same story)

	28-03-2005 19:03									#32
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Stephen King? Definitely one of my favorite writers, and his works do scare me, but the film adaptations I also found to be rather lacking.

	28-03-2005 21:59									#33
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I like his novel Stop Threadjacking or The Devil will get You.

	28-03-2005 22:40									#34
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So if I make one post not directly related to the topic, you feel compelled to add your typical spam message for a +1. There's something telling me you might not be a Deity for very long anymore .

	28-03-2005 23:00									#35
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Ruh-roh!

	28-03-2005 23:18									#36
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The topic, in case anyone had forgotten, was whether or not progress is amazing.

Reviewing the thread (selectively ) the key point seems to be that whilst progress is indeed amazing, the progress made in original Doom may be even more impressive than the progress since then.

Perhaps that should be the point for discussion from now on.

	28-03-2005 23:29									#37
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we all piously talk about how gameplay is more important than graphics - yet progress here seems to all be measured in graphics

	28-03-2005 23:37									#38
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quote: Reviewing the thread (selectively ) the key point seems to be that whilst progress is indeed amazing, the progress made in original Doom may be even more impressive than the progress since then.

It is hard to make more impressive progress than the game that is the first sophisticated 3D shooter. I know there was Wolfenstein, but Doom has real 3D level architecture, etc., although it's technically not really 3D. But anyway, that progress is hard to match. Maybe a game that looks indistinguishable from a movie.

quote: we all piously talk about how gameplay is more important than graphics - yet progress here seems to all be measured in graphics

In the case of Doom3, it made a point of keeping the gameplay retro and is one of the reasons Doom fans love it, and me too. There is a ton of FPS games on the market. Army games, sci-fi games, whatnot. But nothing to really offer a retro experience like Doom3, simple run&gun.

	29-03-2005 01:02									#39
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Graphics look better, but it seems that companies are using graphics as a substitute for good game design.

	29-03-2005 08:00									#40
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Consumers don't buy games with older graphics. It is little wonder that the emphasis has moved towards graphics and away from good game design.

	29-03-2005 10:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Consumers don't buy games with older graphics. It is little wonder that the emphasis has moved towards graphics and away from good game design.

Quality games have become niche markets, unfortunetly, with games like Europa Universalis, Dominions, Space Empires, ect... that focus on gameplay rather than eye candy.

	29-03-2005 14:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Consumers don't buy games with older graphics. It is little wonder that the emphasis has moved towards graphics and away from good game design.

Some might say the fact that the market consists of an ever increasing proportion of casual gamers has caused this.

	29-03-2005 16:04									#43
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RE: Isn't progress amazing?

I think its a little like comparing the origonal star wars trilogy with the new ones(episode1 etc). Sure the new ones are much more technically compitant, but they are not likely to gain the cult status of the origonals.

Its not always about the graphics?

	29-03-2005 18:52									#44
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New games are good AND have good graphics. The new star wars movies are just pure crap.

	29-03-2005 19:37									#45
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Some new games.

	29-03-2005 21:19									#46
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A very few new games.

	29-03-2005 21:30									#47
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Let's not forget a lot of old games were crap too. You just remember the classics.

	29-03-2005 21:57									#48
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nah, you're all getting old, that's it.

	29-03-2005 23:15									#49
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Doom3 is a good game.

The screen Verto posted doesn't do the game credit though. Try playing it on ultra-high settings at 1600x1200 with a Geforce FX6800 ultra. It's beautiful.

oh BTW, the Xbox version will suck... as all Xbox games do.

	29-03-2005 23:17									#50
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i wasnt thinking old games vs new generically - it was more a jab at FPS - my first thought was that it would be hard to find such a focus on graphics among non-casual gamers (which we of course are) if we were talking about Strategy, adventure, or even RPGs. Solver however pwned me by saying its not an FPS thing, its a Doom thing. Not knowing enough about the different flavors of shootemup to reply, i didnt. (And dont think im going to anytime soon - im deep into EU2 addiction now )

	29-03-2005 23:17									#51
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Quality games have become niche markets, unfortunetly, with games like Europa Universalis, Dominions, Space Empires, ect... that focus on gameplay rather than eye candy.

I like the EU visuals.

	30-03-2005 00:00									#52
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I'd say it like this: Graphics is neccessary, but not overly important. It's a fact that graphics is a good thing for a game, but I'd say the gameplay, atmosphere, feel etc. is much more important of course.

I like the EU engine, but it's of course old and has limitations, not only in it's look. I look forward to the new engine, that's for sure!

	30-03-2005 00:38									#53
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The reason EU and the like are niche games is not the relatively simple visuals but the complexity of gameplay. It's obvious that a game with simple gameplay will find a larger market for itself. And it's obvious that there's no point comparing FPS complexity in this regard, as any strategy game will be much more complex than a FPS game.

On the other hand, I like it how strategy games keep their visuals low. It lowers the system requirements dramatically. Civ3 can be played on very old comps, and I expect Civ4, even with its 3D engine, will not have any ridicilous requirements.

	30-03-2005 01:18									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava oh BTW, the Xbox version will suck... as all Xbox games do.

Negatory, the PS2 version will suck... oh wait.

	30-03-2005 05:18									#55
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well a PS2 version would suck... because consoles suck

	30-03-2005 05:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor RE: Isn't progress amazing? I think its a little like comparing the origonal star wars trilogy with the new ones(episode1 etc). Sure the new ones are much more technically compitant, but they are not likely to gain the cult status of the origonals. Its not always about the graphics?

Tho I think a valid point here would have to be that the first Star Wars movies were interesting primarily *because* of their 'graphics' (special effects). The plot of Star Wars is a pretty simple archetype-based epic... and the actors, well, the next time I hear anyone claim Mark Hamill was a talented actor will be the first, and Carrie Fisher ... ehm. Yeah. Only the supporting cast was very good, really, in terms of acting.

No, the reason Star Wars was a huge megahit was the combination of the incredible special effects, and some of the more mundane effects like Darth Vader's voice; add that to the loveable, simple characters and a heartwarming plot that everyone can understand and relate to, and you have a sure winner.

Not great acting or great plot writing (the movie equivalent of great gameplay I figure )

	30-03-2005 06:22									#57
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so Doom is to Doom3 is to EU as the early Star Wars films were to the recent Star Wars films were to films by say, Stanley Kubrick or Akira Kurosawa?

	30-03-2005 06:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Let's not forget a lot of old games were crap too. You just remember the classics.

Of course I realise that. It doesn't help my case any though, so I didn't mention it.

	30-03-2005 06:56									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so Doom is to Doom3 is to EU as the early Star Wars films were to the recent Star Wars films were to films by say, Stanley Kubrick or Akira Kurosawa?

Yep, and just as we all love popcorn movies, we all love popcorn games too. They're the ones that sell best in both media.

	30-03-2005 07:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so Doom is to Doom3 is to EU as the early Star Wars films were to the recent Star Wars films were to films by say, Stanley Kubrick or Akira Kurosawa?

Sure, or close enough. As such, Doom was quite wonderful, but Doom3 is panned, even for being better at all the things Doom was ... just not better compared to the times