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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
Erm, didn't he have sex with her when she was like 12, though? |
dude, my greatgrandmother was married at 13
that isn't even pedophilia now...
(although still ****ed up now..)
12 is just too young in our culture.. where many are taken care of by their parents until they are older than 20
Jon Miller
(I can still remember this girl I knew when I was in 9th grade whose body compared favorably to models at the age of 13 or so)
(I also did know of people who were having sex at age 12, with others of a similiar age (generally the guy was = or > girl))
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The Koran says that only good muslims are fundimentalists
And the Bible says you can just follow the verses you want, right? |
Actually, yes. At least in mainline (nonfundimentalist) Protestant groups great pains are taken to say that pre-Jesus Jewish teachings were flawed and thus Jesus needed to be sent to put people back on the right track. In other words the old testament has much which should be ignored but the new testiment contains Jesus's teachings and so should trump the old testiment.
You may recall I said all three of the monotheistic religions are screwed up and I don't believe ay one of them, however, Islam is by far the most screwed up and prone to violence of all of them. You just can't escape Mohammed's teachings and they are royal screwed up.
quote:
quote:
commited pedophilia with a 9 year old |
This statement by itself shows that you are coming at this with prejudice and bias and not logically weighing Christianity and Islam.
The 9 year old was married by Muhammed, but he did not have consummate the marriage when she was young. |
That is open to debate even amoung muslim scholars. No one really knows if he just married her and didn't have sex with her or if he was a filthy pedophile. Logic says he probably had sex with his wife. In any even Mohamed was still a rapist, a thief, a slaver, a murderer, and a power mad cult leader who ordered the deaths of just about everyone who didn't join his cult. Mohammed was an 8th century Hilter, Stalin, or Saddam. There is no getting around the fact that he commited horrible crimes, extolled his followers to commit still more horrible crimes, and that his cult was born in violence and violence remains it's core teachings to this day. Read your Koran and see how apostates, nonbelievers, and women are treated. It's violent and it's barbaric.
quote:
One of the main problems is people trying to analyize another culture without any knowledge of that culture other than the shallowest view. |
I think I have a pretty good view of the culture. I just see it for what it is. Barbaric. Watch the video of the couple being stoned to death if you think it is not barbaric. That is Islam practiced according to the Koran.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
I'm an Atheist whose parents are Jews, and oddly, I dislike Islam and Christianity far more.
Judaism at least has its wonderful simplicity. Just one God, no holy spirits or walking on water or any of that other silly stuff. |
and stonings.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:29
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Shi once had a very interesting argument that had convinced me: it's that Islam's dogma fundamentally has more potential for fundamentalism than the Jewish or Catholic one. Besides, the argument can be used to exlpain why it seems protestantism has a higher potential for such moronism as well.
AFAIK, Jews and Catholics consider their sscripture to be the work of man, inspired by God. As such, they give an important role to tradition and interpretation, and they understand the scripture is not to be taken literally, as it has been written by faillible men.
OTOH, the Coran is directly the word of God: Mohammed learned by heart what God told him, and he recited it back. It's one of the reason the Coranic schools insist so much on learning by heart btw.
Besides, unlike catholicism, Islam is not an organized religion, and anybody and his dog can become a priest (I think it's different in the Shia subsection, but I'm not sure). This leads to a variety of schools of thought, whether liberal, conservative, or outright reactionary/fundamentalist ones. But the dogma of scripture providing the one literal truth does help the fundamentalists significantly.
In a time where many Muslims feel alienated by the modern world, it's quite an ordinary reaction that many want to go back to their roots (at least, to what they perceive* as their cultural roots) and go fundie. But even if our times favour fundamentalism, Islam had a recurrent problem with that notion ever since the end of its golden age.
*The crap spewed by many fundie groups today is a reaction to moderity, and it has been invented only some decades ago, just like much of the crap spewed by fundamentalist Evangelicals has been invented in the 19th or 20st century.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
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quote:
At least in mainline (nonfundimentalist) Protestant groups great pains are taken to say that pre-Jesus Jewish teachings were flawed and thus Jesus needed to be sent to put people back on the right track. |
Does the Bible itself say that part of it can be ignored? It's a cop-out to say that Protestant groups say parts of the Old Testament can be ignored. The book itself doesn't say that.
quote:
Read your Koran and see how apostates, nonbelievers, and women are treated. |
Hmmm, Christianity in the 700s allowed non-believers to flourish within their walls? Funny, because that's when I thought the roots of Christian anti-semitism were being built. And women were treated nicely in other parts of the world at the time as well? Wow... didn't know that women were equals to men in China around the same time. Fact of the matter is that Islam gave women more rights than any other Eurasian society at the time (perhaps some Native American tribes gave them more, but I can't be sure).
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Logic says he probably had sex with his wife. |
Frankly, your arguments are more on the basis of emotion than any logical basis. This whole deluded belief that our morality should apply to the past, for one.
quote:
I think I have a pretty good view of the culture. I just see it for what it is. Barbaric. |
And if you said that back in 1200, you'd be laughed out of the city. If the religious was so barbaric, why was it the center of cultural and scientific advances in the late Middle Ages? Are you going to (predictably) argue that that was not due to Islam? If it was so inherantly barbaric, why was it not considered so during that time period? Maybe because it doesn't fit into your little fallacy that the culture that invented algebra could be considered barbaric?
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Jon Miller
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as far as it went, european kings were getting married even earlier than that (like pre6) in the middle ages at times...
Jon Miller
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:29
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I would still claim the only problem is fundamentalism, period.
Because they tend to intervene other people's lives. There is a little backwards knot, that for example Christians (fundies) think they are right, and bible says that a good Christian spreads the word. So far, bible isn't disagreeing. But where does it say, that you are supposed to threaten people with hell, shout at them, threaten them and what ever. It doesnt' say that. Or if it says, maybe it's one of them teachings better left undone. Like stoning people.
The problem is, fundies CHOOSE the parts they will follow, and disregard the ones they don't like, that are too liberal for their taste. Like the one where you are supposed to be tolerant and stuff. Live and let live. Who the hell thinks Jesus was 'conservative Christian' ????  Is that a nice way to say you believe others will burn in hell and you will be racist against them for your life on earth? I would like to understand the logic where God actually likes the idea of a fundie going and trashing other folks.
THIS is a problem. Tolerant people, Christians, Muslims, Jewish people around the world let the fundies do what they do, and everyone else do what they do, but fundies just have to stick their noses on everyone elses business. Because they are being good Christians. Well, how about stop being aggressive judgemental bastard for starters, and be that good Christian and promote the religion with sense of reasonability?
Example: Terrorists blows up stuff. People in Palestine gather to streets to dance. Disgusting. Because westerners have oppressed Palestine so long, it's ok to joy their death by dancing on the streets? Sounds extreme to me. You tell me those dancing folks are reasonable, and tolerant?
The flip side: Many of us Christians not going to streets to dance but getting satisfaction and righteous feeling when stuff gets blown up in Islamic countries. ****, that's reasonable? The difference is, there was no dancing, but how much does it REALLY differ? It doesn't differ at all.
These people are fundies, because they are not tolerant. They don't accept other people who are different. That's not very Christian. That's going against the main teachings, but fundies choosed to 'spread the word'. They don't even realize how freaking stupid that sounds, and how utterly dangerous that is. They are doing God's work and going to heaven and saving people. Yeah doing what? being obnoxious and directly having influence on deaths of other people?
That's the problem. The lack of tolerance. Between any religion, but mostly between Muslims and Christians. You don't often see Hindus waiving the war flag on other religions. And fundies think they are the best of people in God's eyes, which is totally weird, I mean they are the root of many problems, that wouldn't be here if it wasn't for their hate mongering, because they do hate, and that's the fuel in their fire.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:29
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quote:
Does the Bible itself say that part of it can be ignored? It's a cop-out to say that Protestant groups say parts of the Old Testament can be ignored. The book itself doesn't say that.
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Read Bible. Jesus says that. He says for example You don't have to fast in sabat.
quote:
quote:
Read your Koran and see how apostates, nonbelievers, and women are treated. |
Hmmm, Christianity in the 700s allowed non-believers to flourish within their walls? Funny, because that's when I thought the roots of Christian anti-semitism were being built. And women were treated nicely in other parts of the world at the time as well? Wow... didn't know that women were equals to men in China around the same time. Fact of the matter is that Islam gave women more rights than any other Eurasian society at the time (perhaps some Native American tribes gave them more, but I can't be sure).
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Weak argument.
The behaviour of VIIIth century Christians is of no relevance to modern Christianity, while Al-Qur'an and Muhammad are the basis of Muslim beliefs.
quote:
Frankly, your arguments are more on the basis of emotion than any logical basis. This whole deluded belief that our morality should apply to the past, for one.
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It's a deluded belief of all messianic religions. God's right do not change. You have the same religious duties as hungreds of years ago.
quote:
And if you said that back in 1200, you'd be laughed out of the city. If the religious was so barbaric, why was it the center of cultural and scientific advances in the late Middle Ages? Are you going to (predictably) argue that that was not due to Islam? If it was so inherantly barbaric, why was it not considered so during that time period? Maybe because it doesn't fit into your little fallacy that the culture that invented algebra could be considered barbaric? |
In late Middle Ages Muslim world was already in cultural decline mostly.
And no, algebra was not invented thanks to Islam. Islam didn't stop inventing it, though.
But of course it's worth to say that nearly all Arab linguistic and literature studies originated from islamic studies.
In comparison to the surrounding, Muslim world 650-1300 lets say was a fourishing one and definitely can not be called barbaric - not more than any other civ of the era.
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