22-04-2005 00:58									#451
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Sure, but the Brit blockade would have been a surface blockade conducted according to the rules of war. There would have been no passenger liners sunk with loss of American lives. The populace would have remained isolationist without these events. Nor do I see the US navy convoying merchant ships carrying war supplies under the guns of Brit battleships safely through to German ports. Though that would lead to war between the US and the Brits, I don't see it happening. It would be the same thing as a declaration of war by the US on GB. Compare it to the Sovs in '62 trying to escort their ships to Cuba. No, I don't see the US being so dumb as to get into a 'back down or get blown away' scn.

Though anything can happen, and the improbable isn't the impossible.


Also, the Germans speak German, that's a problem.

A scn that I consider more likely is that Bismark and GB form an alliance around 1900. Therefore GB and France never mend fences. France and Russia join in an alliance soon after. They get stuck with Italy. So, on the Central powers side you have Germany, GB, and Austria Hungary. On the Allied side you have France, Russia and Italy.

Archduke what's his name and his wife get assasinated by that Serbian guy in 1914.

Austria Hungary goes through its routine which ends in a declaration of war on Serbia. Russia supports Serbia and does its routine ending in war with Austria Hungary. Germany already exchanged happy letters with AH so they declare against Russia. The French, full of optimism, you know how they get, declare against Germany and begin ramping up for their vengeful 'march on Berlin'. The Brits then declare against the French and shut down their commerce (blockade) and begin stripping them of colonies, which they've gotten really good at over the centuries. Amazingly, Italy remains neutral

It would all be over in maybe 6 months...

This is the way things should have gone. It is the natural way of things. Germany and GB should have been allies, it was in the cards. Bismark didn't play them and the Kiaser burned them, pissed on them, burried the ashes in the ground and plowed salt into therein so that nothing could ever, ever, grow there. It was so bad that France and GB could mend fences, and Russia and GB could do the same. Amazing. History itself is totally improbable.

	22-04-2005 01:19									#452
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Like I said, the history of the 20th Century can be summed up in one phrase: Germany always underestimates the Brits.

For the 21st Century, it still looks like the Brits have their act together. They are faithful allies to the Superpower, and even have some influence on what the 800 pound gorillia does.

Meanwhile, Germany has again found itself at odds with the Brits (and the Americans). Stupidity is consistent it seems.

	22-04-2005 01:37									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Meanwhile, Germany has again found itself at odds with the Brits (and the Americans). Stupidity is consistent it seems.

There is a slight difference between now and 1938. There doesn't sit a dictator with imperical dreams in Berlin today - that maybe prevent a WWIII.

	22-04-2005 01:39									#454
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The time of europe is past ...unless they can form a political union none of the parts equal much of anything, and they'll never form a political union. They hate each other too much and are too greedy, each wanting a piece of the pie out of all proportion to their reality if not their egos.

	22-04-2005 04:14									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BlackCat, well it does look like you are coming around. Britain has actively opposed the current great continental power over the centuries as a matter of essential self defense. Nazi Germany was just one more example. What the did in laying down a marker on Poland had nothing to do with Poland. It had everything to do with Britain.

And what is the problem in this ? Isn't the british allowed to defend themself ? Actually, it's quite funny because you have just given a good reason to why britain should interfere into the nazi claims in poland witch you several times has claimed that they didn't have.

	22-04-2005 04:22									#456
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat And what is the problem in this ? Isn't the british allowed to defend themself ? Actually, it's quite funny because you have just given a good reason to why britain should interfere into the nazi claims in poland witch you several times has claimed that they didn't have.

BlackCat, I was trying to force you and others to admit that Britain intended to make war on Germany for its own interests, and was just looking for a pretext to justify it.

	22-04-2005 04:25									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BlackCat, I was trying to force you and others to admit that Britain intended to make war on Germany for its own interests, and was just looking for a pretext to justify it.

Well, then you have failed. If the nazi regime hadn't attacked poland there would not have been a war.

	22-04-2005 04:28									#458
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Well, then you have failed. If the nazi regime hadn't attacked poland there would not have been a war.

True. But I said that already did I not?

"Pretext."

	22-04-2005 04:30									#459
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its hard to win a war when you have a man who was probably suffering from a severe post combat traumatic stress disorder heading up your government

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 22-04-2005 at 04:48

	22-04-2005 04:34									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Ned True. But I said that already did I not? "Pretext."

Nope. You have consistently claimed that it was britain that started the war.

	22-04-2005 04:43									#461
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Blackcat, they did. The war between Britain and Germany.

	22-04-2005 05:01									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Like I said, the history of the 20th Century can be summed up in one phrase: Germany always underestimates the Brits.

The Anglo historical tradition puts it as "what's wrong with the Germans?" That is the central question.

quote: For the 21st Century, it still looks like the Brits have their act together. They are faithful allies to the Superpower, and even have some influence on what the 800 pound gorillia does.

yeah right, dream on.

quote: Meanwhile, Germany has again found itself at odds with the Brits (and the Americans). Stupidity is consistent it seems.

Really stupid? Germany is naturally achieving a political and economic domination of Europe via the EU which it never achieved by war.

An interesting anecdote - I heard a radio report recently in which primary school children were asked why they thought the EU constitution was a good idea. Amongst other reasons, one little girl replied the constitution is good because Europeans can all band together to fight back if the USA attacks them

Its a very sad commentary on transalantic relations that little kids think like that.

	22-04-2005 05:02									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Blackcat, they did. The war between Britain and Germany.

Nope. That war started when nazi attacked poland.

Edit : AH got between.

	22-04-2005 10:30									#464
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nope. That war started when nazi attacked poland. Edit : AH got between.

Well, as a point of fact, Britain declared war on Germany two days later.

	22-04-2005 10:32									#465
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If you want to include small power skirmishes, the war really started when the Chinese blew up that RR in Manchuria. Another possible date is when Mao's troops attacked the Japanese in Peking. That whole misadventure is what got the US into the war with Japan, and the dates are far earlier than the German attack on Poland in '39.

	22-04-2005 10:34									#466
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yes, well, we kind of have established dates for WWII Ned, thanks anyway.

	22-04-2005 10:39									#467
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German-Brit relations have reached a new low after the Brit press began calling new German pope a Nazi. Germany's leading newspaper is appalled.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...in_050421100003

""English insult the German pope," said the front-page headline, below the words "Hitler Youth".

The Sun, like Bild the highest-selling daily newspaper in its market, had headlined its coverage of the election of Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday with the words "From Hitler Youth to... Papa Ratzi."

"It is impertinent to reduce the German pope to a Hitler Youth on the day after his election," Bild fumed.

The new pope, known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger until his election, has made no secret of his past in wartime Germany, saying he was an unwilling participant in Adolf Hitler's youth movement which he joined at the age of 14.

Bild was also unhappy with the front-page headline on Wednesday's Daily Telegraph broadsheet which described the pope as "God's Rottweiler", a reference to his role as the moral guardian of the Catholic Church's conservative wing.

A Bild editorial written by senior journalist Franz Josef Wagner said: "If you read the British tabloids yesterday, you would have thought Hitler had become pope.

"Only the devil could come up with such a thing. Or you English, with your complexes.

"It is like in football matches, we are always the Nazis."

	22-04-2005 10:41									#468
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The Bild, finished:

"The editorial added: "I do not hate in return. The pope in his goodness will include you idiots in his prayers. Yes you, the editors of The Sun and the Daily Mirror. Even idiots go to heaven."

	22-04-2005 10:43									#469
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I think you'll find the German tabloids are just as bad - in fact it was German tabloids that named Ratzinger the "Panzer cardinal", long before he became Pope.

Oh - and you posted this in the wrong thread I think.

	22-04-2005 10:50									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think you'll find the German tabloids are just as bad - in fact it was German tabloids that named Ratzinger the "Panzer cardinal", long before he became Pope. Oh - and you posted this in the wrong thread I think.

Not really. The Brits really have something about the Germans they will not let go, and I think, vice-a-versa.

	22-04-2005 10:53									#471
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"Not really. The Brits really have something about the Germans they will not let go, and I think, vice-a-versa."

...and everyone loves the French of course. Ned, this is europe, everyone hates everyone.

	22-04-2005 15:14									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse its hard to win a war when you have a man who was probably suffering from a severe post combat traumatic stress disorder heading up your government

Or perhaps a severe personality disorder exacerbated by a severe case of post combat stress disorder.

	22-04-2005 15:29									#473
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As a British journalist said before the Euro '96 semi-final against Germany "Do not fret if we lose our national game to Germany tommorow, for we have beaten them at theirs twice this century".

	23-04-2005 14:46									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Ned molly, good debate, though. I enjoyed it. Did you?

I'm not really a masochist, more inclined towards sadism.

Thus, head-butting brickwalls is not pleasurable.

	23-04-2005 14:51									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BlackCat, I was trying to force you and others to admit that Britain intended to make war on Germany for its own interests, and was just looking for a pretext to justify it.

Which is truly absurd, given the ridiculous shameful lengths that Chamberlain's government went to in order to mollify Hitler, despite his having broken the Versailles Treaty, despite his illegal Anschluss, his gobbling up of Czechoslovakia and how they even at the last minute attempted to browbeat Poland into submitting to Hitler's will.


Really, Ned, you can formulate a theory (thesis was a bit overstated for your 'idea') but unless and until there's anything like historical evidence for it, all you have to show to back it up is less substantial than a Fata Morgana on an overcast day.

	23-04-2005 15:39									#476
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Which is truly absurd, given the ridiculous shameful lengths that Chamberlain's government went to in order to mollify Hitler, despite his having broken the Versailles Treaty, despite his illegal Anschluss, his gobbling up of Czechoslovakia and how they even at the last minute attempted to browbeat Poland into submitting to Hitler's will.

I've read some revision recently on Chamberlain. Appeasement was traditional British foreign policy for rising continental powers over 4 centuries. Chamberlain's approach was quite orthodox. It was only when a Napoleonic figure emerged that looked like dominating the continent i.e. Hitler after 1938, that Britain's policy shifted. The other traditional strand, coalition building and containment, was also evident in Chamberlain's approach.

The strong reluctance to confront Hitler stemmed from 2 main sources - Britain's military unpreparedness was one big factor- behind the scenes Britain was rearming fast however it was not ready until 1939 to take a stand - Chamberlain was acutely aware of this because he was driving the re-armament program - for background read up on Royal Air Force development during this period - fighter strength particularly for home defence was rapidly, not to say frantically, built up between 1936 and 1939.

The second factor was the spectre of world war I. "Peace in our time" was more than a slogan, it was a heartfelt plea and made politicians in Britain and France, even more so in France, not to mention ordinary people -extremely reluctant to risk war with Germany.

To Chamberlain's credit, once it became clear that Hitler was not going to honour international agreements he signed - which was confirmed when Germany occuppied the rest of Czechoslovakia - British attitudes hardened dramatically and Chamberlain stood by Poland even though Britain had very little to gain from doing so.

This latter point explains the pressure Britain applied for the Poles to come to terms with Hitler. There was room for compromise - particularly over the Danzig corridor which was a very peculiar arrangement and bound to cause trouble whoever was in charge of a resurgent Germany. Chamberlain's government still honoured their commitment to Poland, in a similar way to Britain's honouring of security guarantess given to Belgium which dragged Britain into WWI. Its simply wrong to see Chamberlain as spineless and weak. Popular memory has rather misjudged him. I find it hard to be critical of a man who tried so hard to prevent a war that cost the lives of 50 million people. Even if he failed.

	23-04-2005 15:41									#477
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Ned's performance in this thread was surreal.

	23-04-2005 15:43									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Ned's performance in this thread was surreal.

Honestly, I kept thinking it was some kind of elaborate hoax.


Still, now another German has occupied previously Polish territory, it looks like it's starting all over again.

	23-04-2005 15:48									#479
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Yes but I actually know something about this period so your arse is mine.

	23-04-2005 15:49									#480
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes but I actually know something about this period so your arse is mine.

Eh ?