16-04-2005 03:47									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I agree with this point, that Germany fully intended to start a war with Poland. They, however, had no intention of starting a war with Britain. So, when you say that Germany started THE war, we have to define which war it started. What I have tried to demonstrate by facts is that Britain intended to start a war with Germany, but that Germany did not intend to start a war with Britain. I think you must agree with this as the facts are on this issue are almost beyond dispute. Now, if the war between Germany and Britain was the World War, who started it? It was Britain that declared war on Germany, not the other way around. The question of whether Britain was justified or not is a separate question. Britain had justification, in my view, when Germany took over Czechoslovakia to the extent that Britain was guaranteeing the Versailles and related treaties.

Your logic keep on confusing me. Germany knew very well that an attack on Poland was the same thing as declaring war against Britain and France, and Germany chose to attack Poland despite of the knowledge of this. How are you able to get to the conclusion that Britain and France was the agressors when in fact the only nation that attacked another country was germany ?

Britain did not declare war on germany, it was quite opposite, germany declared war against Britain when they attacked Poland.

	16-04-2005 03:57									#362
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No they didn't, they expected Britain to back down as they did in 38, Hitler was hopping mad after the declaration of war had come in on September 3.

	16-04-2005 04:05									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Ned 1) I agree that Britain was trying to prevent a war with Poland by giving it the blank check, et al. 2) The balance of power idea is the true cause of Britain's interference. It gave the blank check and defensive alliance with Poland in order to preserve the balance of power. Thus the reason for Britain's interference was primarily to protect its own interests. It could not and did not want to tolerate a restored Germany on the continent.

And ?

quote: A better analogy would have been Britain (and its allies) declaring war on Iraq in 1990 in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Had the Brits set its goal then the elimination of Saddam, and not just getting Iraq out of Kuwait, the parallel would be complete. (Many people criticize the Gulf War allies for not doing just that.)

Nope. This is a meaningless analogy. It was possible to free Kuwait without going through Iraq, while it was in no way feasible to free poland without going through germany. Anyway, germany solved the problem by their attack north and west.

My analogy with the terroist still holds because Poland had the choice to give in to the terrorist's war threat or fight back with the support of Britain and France.

	16-04-2005 04:11									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion No they didn't, they expected Britain to back down as they did in 38, Hitler was hopping mad after the declaration of war had come in on September 3.

That may have been the thinking in Berlin that Brits and French just should have rolled over, but really, is it sane to rely on such assumptions ? Just because they have done it before doesn't imply they will do it again.

	16-04-2005 04:26									#365
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they always went "vabanque", that is putting it all on one card. it's not sane, it's nazithink. the beginning of the end at that point.

	16-04-2005 05:09									#366
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You are right that they were "putting all on one card" several times - the problem was that they had a strong card as they proved in the west - try imagine what the result could have been if they had played it right in the east (sorry that I in this way returns to the OP).

	16-04-2005 05:17									#367
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Blackcat, Ecthelion is correct. The ultimatum that arrived in Germany two days after the invasion had begun genuinely surprised and shocked the German government.

	16-04-2005 05:26									#368
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one more thread whereeveryone agrees they just want to brag with their knowledge

	16-04-2005 05:59									#369
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Natürlich!

	16-04-2005 06:00									#370
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I würde es schlagen.

	16-04-2005 06:03									#371
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Ich auch!

	16-04-2005 06:04									#372
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honestly, with a bit more hair than I have now I look like the dood in your avatar icon

	16-04-2005 06:06									#373
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I saw your picture once that you posted, you were on a ski trip or something.

I think you do look like that guy.

	16-04-2005 06:10									#374
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yeah, that ski trip pic is only topped by one else... in real life I look like sh!t, but even on the worst pic ever made of me (Apolyton picture contest #3) I look like that dude

some late night dude he is? shows how much humour I have.

	16-04-2005 06:12									#375
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contest #4 actually

	16-04-2005 06:13									#376
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Yep, it's a younger John Stewart:



He's a little older now:

	16-04-2005 06:17									#377
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the first is not me, the 2nd mightbe me in 30 years

	16-04-2005 06:19									#378
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Yeah that first one is a weird picture, I think

	16-04-2005 06:25									#379
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yeah I tend to look liek **** anyway

	16-04-2005 06:26									#380
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the pic I posted for the 4th conterst lookied like your avatar just inverted

	16-04-2005 06:28									#381
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I think I remember that!


You had the same facial expression and were looking the OTHER way.

	16-04-2005 06:30									#382
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ROTFL

that pretty much sums it up

	16-04-2005 06:30									#383
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poll: should I get a new avatar icon?

have you ever seen the "mushroom" pic?

	16-04-2005 06:46									#384
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I don't remember the mushroom pic.

But I like your avatar.

	16-04-2005 06:47									#385
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it shows how I don't take all that American conservative crap all so seriously. it als oshows my laziness to change avatar after 3 years of meaningless use.

	16-04-2005 06:51									#386
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Cool! That's kinda what my avatar says too.

American conservative crap 1995

American conservative crap 2005

I had a British flag avatar for like 3 years straight.

	16-04-2005 06:52									#387
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I remember that

	16-04-2005 14:20									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to Czech, that was long part of the HRE. Why would Chamberlain not discuss its status at a conference about Versailles?

You keep raising this chimaera about Czechoslovakia being part of the Holy Roman Empire. Given that Czechoslovakia didn't exist as an entity until after the Versailles Treaty (partly as result of lobbying by an American president, as I recall) it's irrelevant.

The Czechs weren't part of a German state. Ever.

Germans emigrated to Bohemia, and the Great Moravian Empire and other areas in Central and Eastern Europe- it didn't make those territories any more 'German' than New York is Haitian.

Hitler's intent, oft expressed, was to incorporate the Sudetenland into a Greater German Reich- and to seize the Czech fortifications (their equivalent of the Maginot Line, with which the German Army were very impressed) the Skoda Armaments' Works, and airbases in Moravia & eastern Slovakia, along with materiel belonging to the Czech army, and mineral resources in what was left of Slovakia.


All prior to his planned assault on Poland.

	16-04-2005 22:43									#389
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Hitler wanted a war with France and Germany. He wanted revenge for WWI and he figured both were weak. The Brits were just a bunch of shopkeepers in his opinion. That's why he never paid much attention to them. He didn't think they were that much of a threat.

	17-04-2005 04:57									#390
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Molly, I can provide you maps of Bohemia and Moravia being part of the HRE. Are these maps incorrect?