31-03-2005 00:24									#1
	Biggest Mistakes the Axis made iyo. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

- First, I would guess it's that Japan attacked the US.

- Second, Hitler had the Italiens as allies which were more of a nuissance than helpful.

- Third, Hitler should not have put off his attack on Brittain, he was 4 weeks to late and the weather did not enable safe beach landings.

- And Forth, Hitler should have spread his forces in two and not gamble to see if the invasion of the Allies would be from the north west of france or from russia's side. He put almost all his forces on russia side.

- Lastly Hitler should not have ruin after the Russian but should have rather waited for them til summer and concentrate on holding up both east and west flanks.

What your opinion?

Spec.

	31-03-2005 00:25									#2
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war on 2 fronts...cmon!

	31-03-2005 00:27									#3
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It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Allies landed in France.

	31-03-2005 00:31									#4
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Persecuting the jews... biiiiiiiiiiiiig mistake. All those who fled went on to build the biggest bomb ever!! Hitler should of used their talent.

	31-03-2005 00:32									#5
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you know what i mean boris, dividing your resources up among 2 enemies...bad bad bad

	31-03-2005 00:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Allies landed in France.

Wrong. It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Communists and Nazis split up in June '41.

	31-03-2005 00:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Allies landed in France.

Exactly, if japan had not invaded the US, the US would not have joined the allies as soon as they did imo, so hitler would still had a war on only 1 front. And would have been able to take Brittain the next year.

So we could say that Hitler lost because of Japan's foolish attack. Us declared war on Germany 8 days after they did on Japan IIRC.

Spec.

	31-03-2005 00:37									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Wrong. It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Communists and Nazis split up in June '41.

The didn't split up, the treaty of non-aggression was cancelled. They always were friction between the 2 thats why germany insisted of signing this treaty.


Spec.

	31-03-2005 00:40									#9
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Germanys biggest mistake - invading rump Czechoslovakia in spring of '39. After that it was very difficult to a avoid a coalition war in Europe, which Germany couldnt win. Best would have been to sit on the gains of '38 - versailles limits dropped, austria and sudeten annexed - and build more or less peacefully from there. Of course that pretty much means Hitler not being Hitler.

Most lists of Axis mistakes are kinda silly - (they shoulda gone for Moscow earlier, etc) they tend to imply a world where Axis makes none of their mistakes, but still assume the allies make all of THEIRS (can anyone say sending several divisions to Greece just when victory in North Africa was in hand - I adore Winnie, but THAT was a flub)

	31-03-2005 00:44									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Exactly, if japan had not invaded the US, the US would not have joined the allies as soon as they did imo, so hitler would still had a war on only 1 front. And would have been able to take Brittain the next year. So we could say that Hitler lost because of Japan's foolish attack. Us declared war on Germany 8 days after they did on Japan IIRC. Spec.

Except FDR was sending US ships in the central atlantic under neutrality patrols, and was trying to help UK in every way possible.

And taking Britain within one year of Pearl (IE by December 1942) is absolutely impossible. Germany didnt have the fleet, and didnt have the landing craft. And didnt have the infrastructure to build either with any speed. And didnt have close to air superiority over Britain. It would take years, by which time the eastern front is resolved.

	31-03-2005 00:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 you know what i mean boris, dividing your resources up among 2 enemies...bad bad bad

I'm not Boris.

	31-03-2005 00:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Allies landed in France.

i hope nobody whos daddy or granddaddy died in the invasion of Sicily shows up here. Or in an allied bombing raid on Germany. Or in a convoy delivering aid to Murmansk.

Nice to see that the same slander has survived for 63 years though. In a preservationist kinda way.

	31-03-2005 00:47									#13
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The two biggest mistakes were (1) declaring war on the US; and (2) Germany's attack through South Russia at Stalingrad.

FDR would not have been able to put the US on a war footing absent a declaration of war.

	31-03-2005 00:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Wrong. It wasn't a war on two fronts until the Communists and Nazis split up in June '41.

They were never together. The USSR simply took advantage of the Nazi invasion of Poland to reaquire territory Poland had stolen from them 19 years earlier. That two hundred miles was also what kept the Nazis from reaching Moscow in '41, so you should be glad they did it, or your ass would be speaking German.

	31-03-2005 00:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Germanys biggest mistake - invading rump Czechoslovakia in spring of '39. After that it was very difficult to a avoid a coalition war in Europe, which Germany couldnt win. Best would have been to sit on the gains of '38 - versailles limits dropped, austria and sudeten annexed - and build more or less peacefully from there. Of course that pretty much means Hitler not being Hitler.

Hitler never beleived in the coallition. Germany did not have the right to build an army but he did. Nobody said anything. He did not have the right to build an air and naval force, but he did. Again, no consequences. When he "took" poland he had warning, but in the end, no consequences. He also took Poland and Hongrie without consequence from france or Brittain like they warned they'd do. When came the time for Czechoslovakia, he thought that it would be the same thing all over again. So that wasn't a mistake of WW2, it was the mistake that started WW2. But Hitler didn't mind, he took france right after in 3 weeks and so on.

Spec.

	31-03-2005 00:49									#16
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IMO

The biggest single mistake was the German persecution and genocide of the Jewish people. This was a large drain on resources and in fact eliminated or caused to flee some of the best scientific minds available. Thow those resources and men into the actual war effort, deny many scientists to Allies and have them working for the AXIS and who knows what weapons might have beendeveloped.

But again, this would require Hitler to not be Hitler.


With the coalitions as they stood, I can't see any scenario in which the Axis win unless the Allies make horrific mistakes or some new super-weapon became available.

The US was coming into the war regardless of Pearl Harbour. It was just a matter of when

	31-03-2005 00:52									#17
	Re: Biggest Mistakes the Axis made iyo. Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Spec - Third, Hitler should not have put off his attack on Brittain, he was 4 weeks to late and the weather did not enable safe beach landings. Spec.

I agree. Hitler should have invaded Britain in June, in Rhine river barges that would have been sunk by the normal waves in the Channel, or by the wake of a passing Destroyer. Whoever had landed would have been cut off from resupply by the RN. Any port they would have moved toward would have been destroyed. The utter disaster might well have caused the fall of the Nazi regime, and several of my inlaws might have survived the war.

Oh, you meant should have from Hitlers POV. In which case I must say no.

	31-03-2005 00:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark i hope nobody whos daddy or granddaddy died in the invasion of Sicily shows up here. Or in an allied bombing raid on Germany. Or in a convoy delivering aid to Murmansk.

My great uncle died on a bombing run and my grandfather served in Italy. Point is, until troops were on the ground in France, no one consided German to be fighting a two-front war, not the Allies, not the Germans, not the Soviets. Germany did not have to divert significant resources to the Italian campaign, like they did with France. And Murmansk was part of the Eastern Front.

	31-03-2005 00:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Hitler never beleived in the coallition. Germany did not have the right to build an army but he did. Nobody said anything. He did not have the right to build an air and naval force, but he did. Again, no consequences. When he "took" poland he had warning, but in the end, no consequences. He also took Poland and Hongrie without consequence from france or Brittain like they warned they'd do. When came the time for Czechoslovakia, he thought that it would be the same thing all over again. So that wasn't a mistake of WW2, it was the mistake that started WW2. But Hitler didn't mind, he took france right after in 3 weeks and so on. Spec.

???????????


Hitler annexed the rest of independent Czecho in Spring 1939. He didnt attack Poland till Sept 1939. Hungary was a Germany ally, and was not occupied by German troops till 1944. Theres really no point in speculating on whatifs till you know the basic chronology. I suggest reading more about what DID happen first.

In any case STARTING WW2 WAS hitlers biggest mistake. By far.

	31-03-2005 00:57									#20
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I would say being Hitler was Hitler's greatest mistake.

	31-03-2005 00:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara My great uncle died on a bombing run and my grandfather served in Italy. Point is, until troops were on the ground in France, no one consided German to be fighting a two-front war, not the Allies, not the Germans, not the Soviets. Germany did not have to divert significant resources to the Italian campaign, like they did with France. And Murmansk was part of the Eastern Front.

Churchill certainly considered that he had a second front going, IIRC. I think FDR did too. We can quibble over what serious resources are - I suggest Robert Overy on German resources devoted to Tunisia, Italy, the West Wall, and to air defence. And I dont see how the North Atlantic is part of the eastern front. Are you saying British seamen died on the eastern front?

	31-03-2005 00:59									#22
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It wasn't a mistake to put off invading Britain; it was a wise move. The Germans simply did not have the capacity to pull off an invasion successfully.

Pulling the US into the war was a massive error.

You could say that Japan not attacking the USSR was a mistake, and in a sense it was, but such a campaign, even though it would probably have been a victory for the Axis, would have been a relatively poor choice for Japan. Germany gets a huge tract of rich land and millions of slaves, whilst Japan gets a relatively poor deal in the form of Eastern Siberia. The Pacific is a much more tempting target for them, especially if they want to be able to stand toe-to-toe to Germany in a post-war world.

	31-03-2005 01:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And I dont see how the North Atlantic is part of the eastern front. Are you saying British seamen died on the eastern front?

Their struggle was to keep the USSR going and able to fight.

	31-03-2005 01:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I would say being Hitler was Hitler's greatest mistake.

well on a moral level of course id agree - on a grand strategic level, if say Hitler had died (lets say of the flu) in January 1939, and been succeeded by some more or less rational military regime, hed probably go down as a great, if morally flawed, German leader.

	31-03-2005 01:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Pulling the US into the war was a massive error.

As I said in a previous thread, once the Germans DoW'd the U.S., it was all over but for the mopping up. They should have let the Japanese take the heat for their mistake, but like the Japanese, they believed we were soft and unwilling to fight. I don't know why anyone ever thought that about us, though.

	31-03-2005 01:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ??????????? Hitler annexed the rest of independent Czecho in Spring 1939. He didnt attack Poland till Sept 1939. Hungary was a Germany ally, and was not occupied by German troops till 1944. Theres really no point in speculating on whatifs till you know the basic chronology. I suggest reading more about what DID happen first. In any case STARTING WW2 WAS hitlers biggest mistake. By far.

Really?! I must have my chronology all wrong. I'll have to check that tonight. I bought a series of 9 ww2 encyclopedias which states exactly what happenned before the coalition. I must be mistaken then.....

Spec.

	31-03-2005 01:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well on a moral level of course id agree - on a grand strategic level, if say Hitler had died (lets say of the flu) in January 1939, and been succeeded by some more or less rational military regime, hed probably go down as a great, if morally flawed, German leader.

Ala Franco.

	31-03-2005 01:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Their struggle was to keep the USSR going and able to fight.

Indeed. Would the US factories that made the lend lease material also be the eastern front? The UK invasion of Iran to keep the LL route across Iran open? Heck, one of the benefits of winning El Alamein was keeping that route open. Was El Alamein also part of the Eastern Front?

	31-03-2005 01:05									#29
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Okay, fine, ya got me.

	31-03-2005 01:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As I said in a previous thread, once the Germans DoW'd the U.S., it was all over but for the mopping up. They should have let the Japanese take the heat for their mistake, but like the Japanese, they believed we were soft and unwilling to fight. I don't know why anyone ever thought that about us, though.

cause we were the worlds first consumer society, and conventionally soft life is supposed to make you weak. And to Hitler, we were racial mongrels, "judaized" in the north, and "negrified" in the south (someone wasnt thinking of Judah Maccabee or Shaka Zulu, let alone of a realistic view of US demographics)