31-03-2005 01:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not Boris.

well you should be che

	31-03-2005 01:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ala Franco.

Hmmm. More or less, thats the idea. Except Franco didnt do for Spains international position what pre-39 hitler did for germanys - Franco was lucky the cold war broke war out before anyone dealt with him.

	31-03-2005 01:10									#33
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From a strategic perspective, Hitler's drive, dedication, and long term vision were what allowed Germany to dominate mainland Europe until the fall of France. At that point, Hitler became a liability, continuously overruling his generals (who were ****ing brilliant, in general), and having no sort of strategic plan other than "everywhere we invade we will meet with unparalleled success."
Therefore, the biggest mistake the Axis made was not killing Hitler in 1940 and installing a military junta in charge of the country, somewhat similar to what was planned in '44. Italy might have objected, but Germany could have withheld support for North Africa and the Balkans, forcing Italy to go along.

	31-03-2005 01:11									#34
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Speaking of Hitler
http://www.goats.com/archive/050314.html and then keep hitting next for a while.

	31-03-2005 01:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral From a strategic perspective, Hitler's drive, dedication, and long term vision were what allowed Germany to dominate mainland Europe until the fall of France. At that point, Hitler became a liability, continuously overruling his generals (who were ****ing brilliant, in general), and having no sort of strategic plan other than "everywhere we invade we will meet with unparalleled success." Therefore, the biggest mistake the Axis made was not killing Hitler in 1940 and installing a military junta in charge of the country, somewhat similar to what was planned in '44. Italy might have objected, but Germany could have withheld support for North Africa and the Balkans, forcing Italy to go along.

POD - Canaris succeeds in having Hitler killed in summer of 1940, and say, a Prussian junta takes over. Assume the residual Nazis go quietly. What do the Prussians do now? Offer peace to UK, of course, but what will they offer that UK will accept? And assuming they do get a truce of sorts, how long will Stalin stay at peace? They still havent escaped Germanys strategic dilemma.

	31-03-2005 01:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark POD - Canaris succeeds in having Hitler killed in summer of 1940, and say, a Prussian junta takes over. Assume the residual Nazis go quietly. What do the Prussians do now? Offer peace to UK, of course, but what will they offer that UK will accept? And assuming they do get a truce of sorts, how long will Stalin stay at peace? They still havent escaped Germanys strategic dilemma.

The underlying fact is that in under no circumstances could Germany have taken over the world. It's just not going to happen.
However, even if Germany still attacks Russia, without Hitler, they take Moscow, probably take Leningrad, they have a much more coherent winter defensive strategy. Hence, they start 1942 on a much better footing, which they could have used to threaten Murmansk and Archangelsk, and severely hurt the allies abilities to support the Soviet war effort. This probably wouldn't have been enough to knock the USSR out of the war, but it would have put Germany in a much better position to counter any allied incursions into Europe (at least, ones in France. The Allied invasion of Italy was pointless).
If the Normandy, or Normandy equivalent in this timeline fails, that may have turned public opinion against the war in the US, which would guarantee German dominance of Europe. However, if the war continues, nuclear weapons would have been used on Germany without any real risk to the pacific theatre, and the allies would still win the war.

quote: Ladies love the Hitler.

	31-03-2005 01:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral . The Allied invasion of Italy was pointless).

The invasion of Italy tied down considerable numbers of German troops at a time when the allies couldnt land in France yet. It also pulled all the Italian troops out the USSR. It provided air bases that could reach places that couldnt easily be reached from UK, like the Romanian oil fields. And it provided a base for an invasion of southern France.

	31-03-2005 02:10									#38
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their mistake was existing in the first place. They had no chance of succeeding. ever...

	31-03-2005 03:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They were never together. The USSR simply took advantage of the Nazi invasion of Poland to reaquire territory Poland had stolen from them 19 years earlier.

Oh, geez. Stolen.

Next you'll tell me that Germany stole Alsace-Lorraine from France in the Franco-Prussian War.

IMHO, the moral claim was about equal in both cases.

	31-03-2005 05:03									#40
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biggest mistakes:

1) Invading Russia too late in the year and with no winter uniforms.

2) Redrecting the bombing attacks away from the RAF when it was just about finished and to Britain's cities.

3) Terrorizing the Ukrainian and other Soviet peoples, turning people who had been cheering their "liberators" into blood-thirsty partisans.

4) Failing to crush the Brits at Dunkirk.

5) Trusting that the Ultra cypher couldn't be broken.

6) Using "Garbo" as the chief source of intelligence in Britain.


I don't see the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as a mistake. The Japanese needed to break the U.S. strategic-reasources embargo, and destroying the U.S. Navy was a way to go about that. However, the way they did it -- a sneak attack-- galvanized the U.S. people, and that was the mistake.

	31-03-2005 10:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler However, the way they did it -- a sneak attack-- galvanized the U.S. people, and that was the mistake.

If they didn't, the IJN might well be destroyed earlier.

	31-03-2005 11:49									#42
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Since the US was critical to Germany's defeat, their policy should have been to do everything to keep America out of the war. There are numerous mistakes Germany made that brought the US into the war. Foremost among them was their alliance with Japan.

	31-03-2005 11:54									#43
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The Allies would have won without U.S. support. it would have taken alot longer though.

	31-03-2005 12:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The two biggest mistakes were (1) declaring war on the US; and (2) Germany's attack through South Russia at Stalingrad. FDR would not have been able to put the US on a war footing absent a declaration of war.

	31-03-2005 13:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The Allies would have won without U.S. support. it would have taken alot longer though.

You'll get a very strong debate on that issue from multiple sources. Lend Lease was critical to the support of both Britain an Russia. Without that support, both would have folded.

	31-03-2005 19:10									#46
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I could care less about imperialist nations waging war on each other. The biggest mistake by the Axis was to overthrow all decent human values and succumbing to an ideology of limitless evil, which is pretty silly IMO.

	31-03-2005 20:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I could care less about imperialist nations waging war on each other. The biggest mistake by the Axis was to overthrow all decent human values and succumbing to an ideology of limitless evil, which is pretty silly IMO.

I'm not so sure that was apparent until the end of the war when we "discovered" the death camps. Until Pearl Harbor, nearly 70% of Americans were opposed to getting involved in the European war. The tells me that the Nazi's image in the US was not that of ultimate evil. In fact, I suspect many actually applauded their attack on the USSR.

	31-03-2005 20:49									#48
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Hmm let's see. Both Axis and Allied made lots of mistakes, naturally, but Axis....

Japan: I think they got too hungry too fast. Why? Maybe they had too much success in the air and against the Brits at first. And then they showed either madness or testicular fortiture by attacking the US, considering the situation they were in, ,and the downfall began. Basically I'd say they got too greedy too fast, instead of building more slowly.

Same for Hitler. He attacked Russia way too early on. He didn't want to attack first so soon, but he got reports the Russians were poorly equipped and tactics weren't strong either, but he disregarded this. After the Winter War, Hitler was convinced he will run Rooskies to the sea. Which he started doing at first, but then came winter, etc etc etc, ROoskies regrouped, made a comeback and the rest is history.

I also feel the Luftwaffe could have been in better hands than Goerings.

Preparations for the coming invasion was also not done properly, since Rommel checked the lines at beaches and told where the reinforcements are strongly needed, and where more men should be concentrated, and if this would not happen, the invading forces would be able to succeed. He was right. And they came, and on those spots Rommel pointed. So, they should have taken him a bit more seriously.

What else. Italy.. well, they weren't too much of an Axis player, since most didn't care what Mussolini wanted. They were too cool for fascism.

Anyway those would be the first ones that comes to my mind.

	31-03-2005 21:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not Boris.

You should be so lucky! Hah!

Anyway, I was always under the impression that the biggest mistake by the Axis was being a bunch of hateful Nazi ****s. That about sums it up.

	31-03-2005 21:23									#50
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They were never together. The USSR simply took advantage of the Nazi invasion of Poland to reaquire territory Poland had stolen from them 19 years earlier. Oh, geez. Stolen. Next you'll tell me that Germany stole Alsace-Lorraine from France in the Franco-Prussian War. IMHO, the moral claim was about equal in both cases.

Or that Germany was just reclaiming land stolen from them after WWI (Danzig). Plus some interest.

	31-03-2005 22:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler biggest mistakes: 1) Invading Russia too late in the year and with no winter uniforms. 2) Redrecting the bombing attacks away from the RAF when it was just about finished and to Britain's cities. 3) Terrorizing the Ukrainian and other Soviet peoples, turning people who had been cheering their "liberators" into blood-thirsty partisans. 4) Failing to crush the Brits at Dunkirk. 5) Trusting that the Ultra cypher couldn't be broken. 6) Using "Garbo" as the chief source of intelligence in Britain. I don't see the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor as a mistake. The Japanese needed to break the U.S. strategic-reasources embargo, and destroying the U.S. Navy was a way to go about that. However, the way they did it -- a sneak attack-- galvanized the U.S. people, and that was the mistake.

Very good list!

BTW, we were taught in school that the failure at Dunkirk was the key. At that time (late sixties, early seventies) there was a large school of thought that if the BEF had been destroyed or largely captured England would have likely agreed to terms with Hitler.

I don't have an opinion on it, it is unknowable but plausible. I think that by attacking Russia prior to ending his war with the UK Hitler sealed his fate.

Someone needs to tell my why my thinking is wrong.

How does Germany ever lose their gains if they do not attack Russia? England can't do it and Stalin would not have invaded. Invading Russia prior to bringing the war with England to a close was insanity. Bringing Japan into the Axis was a blunder, the declaration against the US wasn't, as the US would have declared on Germany anyway.

Nevertheless, Hitler had a puncher's chance to knockout Russia and came closer than people like to admit nowadays.

	31-03-2005 22:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Or that Germany was just reclaiming land stolen from them after WWI (Danzig). Plus some interest.

Or that they were just taking back what the Teutonic Knights had taken, and then after that, Brandenburg-Prussia.

Really, this sort of thing could go back through the Napoleonic wars, the War of the Austrian Succession, the Thirty Years' War, et cetera.


I blame the Celts for leaving Central Europe, and the Goths for migrating from Sweden and the Huns. When in doubt, blame the Huns.

	01-04-2005 00:36									#53
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They were never together. The USSR simply took advantage of the Nazi invasion of Poland to reaquire territory Poland had stolen from them 19 years earlier. Next you'll tell me that Germany stole Alsace-Lorraine from France in the Franco-Prussian War.

There's a difference between grabbing a piece of territory that was yours less than two decades ago, and one that was never yours.

In addition, the people of Eastern Poland treated the Soviet invasion as a liberation, and quickly seized the factories and property of their landlords. Of course, they were in for a big surprise, but they didn't consider themselves part of Poland except for the fact that they'd been annexed by Poland in 1920.

	01-04-2005 00:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Capt Dizle How does Germany ever lose their gains if they do not attack Russia? England can't do it and Stalin would not have invaded.

Wrong. Stalin planned to attack Germany in 1944-5, and was building his industry and forces to be able to do so. He just didn't believe Hitler was going to attack him. A typical problem with megalomaniacs.

	01-04-2005 04:07									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Anyway, I was always under the impression that the biggest mistake by the Axis was being a bunch of hateful Nazi ****s. That about sums it up.

Never thought I'd do this, but...

Not much else that needs to be said, no.

	01-04-2005 04:12									#56
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the biggest mistake the Axis made?

****ING WITH THE US OF A!!

USA USA USA USA!

	01-04-2005 04:15									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sava the biggest mistake the Axis made? ****ING WITH THE US OF A!! USA USA USA USA!

I think the USSR did more damage. (to germany of course- they didn't do **** to japan)

	01-04-2005 04:17									#58
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My history's sketchy, but I thought it was good harsh Russian weather that did the real damage, not the USSR itself. That, and Hitler for being stupid enough to send troops into it where Napoleon had failed.

	01-04-2005 04:18									#59
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the weather didn't kill them, the bullets did.

The russians had to deal with the same harsh conditions. I doubt a simple overcoat would have saved them from the russians wrath.

	01-04-2005 04:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think the USSR did more damage. (to germany of course- they didn't do **** to japan)

COMMIETRAITOR!!!


USA USA USA!