03-04-2005 17:32									#91
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Reading through this thread, one thing that strikes me is how stupid the Germans were. Time and time again, the Germans made fatal errors that cost them the war. How do you choose the worst mistake from all of the colossal errors commited by those fools.

	03-04-2005 18:26									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Reading through this thread, one thing that strikes me is how stupid the Germans were. Time and time again, the Germans made fatal errors that cost them the war. How do you choose the worst mistake from all of the colossal errors commited by those fools.

First of all, watch your language. It´s not as if we were talking about an ancient civ no longer present...

Second, most mistakes the German side made during the war had their origin in Hitler´s constant overruling of the Generals. They were brilliant strategists while Hitler was a politician.

	03-04-2005 18:32									#93
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Micha, your analysis is correct. Had Germany stopped when its "just" demands were met, the war would quickly have ended with Germany restored to most of its WWI borders. The world clearly would not have been united in an effort to defeat what they perceived to be a monsterous regime.

	03-04-2005 18:41									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Reading through this thread, one thing that strikes me is how stupid the Germans were.

Substitute Nazis for Germans and I'd agree with you.


Despite one of the most repellent police-terror states in history, there were still moral and courageous Germans who worked against the regime, at home and abroad, and paid for it with their lives.

There were gifted strategists and tacticians working for someone who thought he knew best- and another gaudy pompous fool who also thought he knew best.

	03-04-2005 22:36									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Micha First of all, watch your language. It´s not as if we were talking about an ancient civ no longer present... Second, most mistakes the German side made during the war had their origin in Hitler´s constant overruling of the Generals. They were brilliant strategists while Hitler was a politician.

Had the war been left to the top generals it might have stalled in France in 1940, since most of them were against the surprise thrust through the Ardennes forest that Hitler favored. The generals favored a sort of replay of the 1914 Shlieffen plan consisting a a broad "swinging door" advance through the low countries into France. We can only guess as to whether this plan would have worked or failed.

	04-04-2005 00:15									#96
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Substitute Nazis for Germans and I'd agree with you. Despite one of the most repellent police-terror states in history, there were still moral and courageous Germans who worked against the regime, at home and abroad, and paid for it with their lives.

The German people as a whole do bear a responsibility for what the Nazies done. They allowed their culture and their name to be used as excuses for what happened. I'm sure there were many fine people in Germany and many that risked their lives to resist and help jews but the fact remains most did look on and allow it to happen. They allowed thugs and criminals to run their goverment and nation into the ground all in the name of their self pity over the First World War and dreams of a great German state. They were victims of the Nazies sure, but they were passive victims and I suspect would have gladly forgotten all that occured if history had been different and Germany had not been totally defeated. Americans gladly forgot all that was done to Native Americans because we were by and large successful in our actions.

	04-04-2005 02:35									#97
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Also the flawed nature of the Weimer constitution, which is what was truly critical for Hitler's ascent. I just tried to do some quick research, and could not find an easy answer for how the critical flaw in the constitution, the portions about governing by decree, got inserted. Without that Hitler very well might not have gotten into power.

By that argument (the German people as a whole do bear a responsibility...) I bear responsibility for Bush and the attack on Iraq part deus, when I have opposed him and the changes in the Republican party every way I can. I've buried family due to the stupid f**king war. More Americans genuinely voted for Bush and the Republicans than voted for Hitler. If you read, most Germans were caught totally off guard by the almost instant ascent of the Nazis, and given the speed with which they consolidated power were largely powerless to do anything. Like most people in that situation, they went on quietly and tried to ignore the problems. That was the best they could do as a whole (unless you wanted to end up in a camp) once the Nazis had control of the State Police and the Military.

	04-04-2005 03:03									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Their struggle was to keep the USSR going and able to fight.

You have it backwards; the USSR's struggle was to give the US time to invade France. Clearly the Russians who died in WWII did so on the Western front.

	04-04-2005 03:04									#99
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Indeed. Would the US factories that made the lend lease material also be the eastern front?

Well, if you go far enough east, you'd eventually hit them...

	04-04-2005 03:07									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Or that Germany was just reclaiming land stolen from them after WWI (Danzig). Plus some interest.

Remind me not to borrow from any Germans...

	04-04-2005 03:44									#101
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Also the flawed nature of the Weimer constitution, which is what was truly critical for Hitler's ascent. I just tried to do some quick research, and could not find an easy answer for how the critical flaw in the constitution, the portions about governing by decree, got inserted. Without that Hitler very well might not have gotten into power.

As I have just helped my sister in her history classes (about the Weimar Republic) I can tell you how it got inserted: It was in there right from the start. The President was given the right to react to national crisis by overruling the Parliament, and he was in fact able to dissolve it and to put the entire government in place.

The constitution was created while Germany was in the middle of a Communist revolution. Only by a small margin the "Social Democrats" got the majority, otherwise the Communists would have created the new Republic. To ensure that the order could be restored in times of revolutions (there were still many cities declaring their own Republics), the President was given those powers. He was meant to rule directly while the crisis lasts, and to return the reign to Parliament after things calmed down. Unfortunately there was much room for abuse. Hitler was not the first to rule without the Parliament: From 1930 on the "Presdidential Cabinets" used decrees to bypass the Parliament. It was a time of troubles, and Hitler simply seized the opportunity. In fact he was lifted to the throne by Hindenburg (a WW1 war hero and very respected politician, President by that time) as the fourth Chancellor in a row within only three years. The others all pissed off either the people, the military or the President. Hitler was - in respect to the political and economic situation - the best man to chose. He ended the power struggles after the World Economic Crisis and restored order - too much order - in the Reich. He reconsolidated the economy and improved the living conditions of most Germans (of course not those of the Jews...). So he was seen as a genius with some strange views, but overall a good statesman in the early 1930´s.

quote: By that argument (the German people as a whole do bear a responsibility...) I bear responsibility for Bush and the attack on Iraq part deus, when I have opposed him and the changes in the Republican party every way I can. I've buried family due to the stupid f**king war. More Americans genuinely voted for Bush and the Republicans than voted for Hitler. If you read, most Germans were caught totally off guard by the almost instant ascent of the Nazis, and given the speed with which they consolidated power were largely powerless to do anything. Like most people in that situation, they went on quietly and tried to ignore the problems. That was the best they could do as a whole (unless you wanted to end up in a camp) once the Nazis had control of the State Police and the Military.

Excellent post. Was about to write something similar. It´s not an excuse, but a very good explaination for the general behaviour of the Germans at that time.

	04-04-2005 03:53									#102
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Micha - nice succinct review. So it was inserted due to the Boshevik unrest in Germany, which was very real at the time. Many people don't realize that the right-wing parties were largely a reaction to the Communists, which were a real threat at the time. So that is why it got inserted, not at the Allies insistance but do to the context of the turmoil in Germany at the time. I was suspicious that something like that might be the case. Also, and I wonder, if the German authoritarian tradition had a bearing on making that "acceptable".

	04-04-2005 04:56									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The German people as a whole do bear a responsibility for what the Nazies done. They allowed their culture and their name to be used as excuses for what happened. I'm sure there were many fine people in Germany and many that risked their lives to resist and help jews but the fact remains most did look on and allow it to happen. They allowed thugs and criminals to run their goverment and nation into the ground all in the name of their self pity over the First World War and dreams of a great German state. They were victims of the Nazies sure, but they were passive victims and I suspect would have gladly forgotten all that occured if history had been different and Germany had not been totally defeated. Americans gladly forgot all that was done to Native Americans because we were by and large successful in our actions.

I think we can safely say they've learned their lesson.

	04-04-2005 04:56									#104
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Also, and I wonder, if the German authoritarian tradition had a bearing on making that "acceptable".

Clearly, yes. The Weimar Republic, in fact, only prevailed during the early 1920´s because of the strong position of the President. The office was also called "Substitute Kaiser (Emperor)", somewhat keeping a bit of monarchism for the conservatives.

When Friedrich Ebert, Social Democrat and lead figure of the non-communist Republican revolution, allied himself with the military and the old administrative machinery it was seen as an act of treason against socialist ideals, but it ensured the Socialist victory over the Communists and stabilized the country. This alliance (made before the constitution was created) has - IMO - also influenced the Republican constitution, especially the strong position of the head of state.

	04-04-2005 08:32									#105
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Why are all you computer gamers so obsessively knowledgeable about WW2?

	04-04-2005 09:06									#106
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passes the time i suppose

	04-04-2005 16:50									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The German people as a whole do bear a responsibility for what the Nazies done.

Do all Americans bear responsibility for the crimes of Nixon and the Klan ?

An absurd assertion.

	04-04-2005 17:01									#108
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Nixon had significant opposition and was eventually brought down by Americans, not by foreign intervention. The Klan was technically illegal and was brought down at least twice, again by Americans.

	04-04-2005 17:16									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Nixon had significant opposition and was eventually brought down by Americans, not by foreign intervention. The Klan was technically illegal and was brought down at least twice, again by Americans.

It's irrelevant who brought down Nixon and the Klan are still active, as I recall.

Willy Brandt and Pastor Niemoller should have felt guilty about Hitler and the Nazi Party ?
Willy Brandt:

'With the invasion of the German Army in 1940 Brandt was forced to move to Sweden. For the rest of the Second World War Brandt gave support to the German resistance movement. '

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERbrandtW.htm


Not all Germans supported Hitler, and not all Germans sat on their hands and did nothing.


Albert Speer on Niemoller and Hitler:

‘He had another such fit of rage at Pastor Niemöller in 1937. Niemöller had once again delivered a rebellious sermon in Dahlem [as had many other of the more evangelistic and conservative Lutheran Pastors and Priests]; at the same time transcripts of his tapped telephone conversations were presented to Hitler. In a bellow, Hitler ordered Niemöller to be put in a concentration camp and, since he had proven himself to be incorrigible, kept there for life. Pastors and Priests were then sent to camps for their dissidence and by 1938 the country had been declared free of the church.’ (p. 98)

From Speer's 'Third Reich' .

	04-04-2005 20:52									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Americans gladly forgot all that was done to Native Americans because we were by and large successful in our actions.

Done to the Native Americans?

My God, this generation certainly has been brainwashed.

	04-04-2005 20:56									#111
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What do you mean, Ned?

	04-04-2005 21:09									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Done to the Native Americans? My God, this generation certainly has been brainwashed.

How so? Are you claiming American actions against the native inhabitants of this continent were not at minimum a classic example of ethnic cleasing?

	04-04-2005 21:09									#113
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It's irrelevant who brought down Nixon and the Klan are still active, as I recall.

The Klan are still active, but not as a terror organization.

	04-04-2005 21:19									#114
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IN term of Nazi mistake during the war, I think it defeats the exercise to then say the entire enterprise was a mistake- otherwise, what is the point? Ditto on the Nazxi brutality. The whole point of Hitler's war (separated here from the longer term Japanese attempt tp dominate Asia which began prior to Hitler's rise to power) was a racial one. So, it makes a bit more sense to question what mistakes the Nazi's made in fulfilling their own aims, ie. the destruction of Jews in their lands, the enslavement and death of the slavic peoples and the creation of a vast new Germany-which was Hitler's plan all along.

1. Failing to mobilize the state for total war earlier-the Germans were outproduced during the war even by the British simply because they failed to fully arm the state until late- the reason German war production peaked in 1944 at the height of allied strategic bombing is that only in 1944 was German war industry fully mobilized. Had this been true all along Germany might have been able to have a fully mechanized army like the US had by say 1943. Whether they would have had the fuel to support his is another matter. HItler failed to do this because well into the war he wanted the full impact of war to be kept from the German populace, including the suffering and even rationing.

2. Delcaring war on the US unnecessarily.

3. Failing to get the British out of the war prior to invading the Soviet union- specifically by not destroying the BEF in Francfe and shifting attacks from the airfields and radar stations to London and other cities.

As for the Japanese and their war to conquer asia:

1. Not resolving the army-navy debate sooner- the Japanese Army wanted to go north vs the Soviets, the Navy south- this debate was not ended until 1939 (two years into their war in China and 8 years after their first moves into Manchuria) when it was clear the Japanese army was no match for the red army.

2. The previously mentioned Japanese Naval doctrine that doomed them.

	04-04-2005 21:21									#115
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Oh, and re: the OP, their biggest mistake was losing.

	04-04-2005 22:16									#116
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In 1927 the entire Nazi membership was only 40,000. Yet by the depths of the depression of 1932, the Nazis were the most successful party in the country, although still garnering only 38 percent of the vote. Many right-wing military and civilian leaders thought that Hitler could be effectively manipulated and so, with the backing of several prominent businessmen, they succeeded in having him named chancellor on January 30, 1933.

Their belief that Hitler would be a Nazi figurehead was soon shattered, however. To secure supreme power for himself as the nation’s Führer (leader), Hitler blamed a fire in the Reichstag building on the Communists, banned the Communist Party, and called new elections. Even in this highly coercive atmosphere, the Nazis still did not obtain an absolute majority in the new Reichstag. Nevertheless, together with their political allies, they succeeded in passing the revolutionary Enabling Act, which granted the government dictatorial powers over all aspects of German life.

Armed with this power, Hitler set out to create a new totalitarian, nationalist empire, the Third Reich. The groundwork had been laid in the old Prussian militarist tradition and in World War I, when the military ran the government. From that foundation, Hitler proceeded with formidable efficiency. He consolidated legislative, executive, judicial, and military authority and then assumed that authority himself. He also became head of state after the death of President von Hindenburg in 1934. The Nazis combined extreme nationalism and political authoritarianism to produce a fascist state, akin to the states created in Italy by Benito Mussolini and in Spain by Francisco Franco.

© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

	04-04-2005 22:22									#117
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How so? Are you claiming American actions against the native inhabitants of this continent were not at minimum a classic example of ethnic cleasing?

The relations between the two cultures were inherently incompatible. Hunting-gathering could not take place near agricultural society for numbers of reasons. This lead to starvation to the Natives and to warfare, to which the Europeans responded. The process gradually forced all native tribes to retreat West, except for the Cherokees who had adopted agriculture. Jackson took care of them.

In the end, the problem of incompatibility of cultures was solved by a promise of the US goverment to support the Natives who would stay on reservations.

	04-04-2005 22:26									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What do you mean, Ned?

See my response GePap. It seems that modern history taught to most Americans paints a picture of evil Europeans conducting a war of genocide against Native Americans. Where this thinking came from, but the truth lies elsewhere.

	04-04-2005 22:39									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Jackson took care of them.

I don't know anything about Jackson and the Cherokees. Could you please tell me what you mean with that statemnt?

	04-04-2005 22:46									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The relations between the two cultures were inherently incompatible. Hunting-gathering could not take place near agricultural society for numbers of reasons. This lead to starvation to the Natives and to warfare, to which the Europeans responded. The process gradually forced all native tribes to retreat West, except for the Cherokees who had adopted agriculture. Jackson took care of them. In the end, the problem of incompatibility of cultures was solved by a promise of the US goverment to support the Natives who would stay on reservations.

The Cherokees are a perfect example, of one tribe that attempted to overcome that "cultural incompatability" to which the US response was the takling of their lands and a forced march west-that is ethnic cleansing. The Iriquois confenderacy met a similar end, thoguht there I guess you would say it was OK as retribution for support of the British in the war of independence.

This is the Nedaverse at its height- "cultural incompatability" is not an excuse for ethnic cleasing and attempts at cultural genocide. After all, a decision of which cultures are "uncompatbile" can be made by anyone- heck, hitler certainly did see German culture as incompatible with inferior Slav culture. I guess it would have been OK if the Slavs had been limited to their own "reservations"