01-04-2005 18:29									#31
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Bush's SS plan

	01-04-2005 18:57									#32
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Bush's SS plan is another reason that Neo-Liberals like DanS should be tarred, feathered, and flogged.

	01-04-2005 19:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't really care if his plan is good or not. The important thing is that he's attempting to break down the resistance that has prevented any sort of reform in the past. The best possible scenario would be to have that resistance broken down and also have Bush's plan amended into something more useful, but I'd settle for just the former at this point. The vital thing is to stop the treatment of Social Security as an untouchable third rail; if we do that, we can always fix any problems Bush's plan introduces.

or wait for a different solution.

	01-04-2005 20:26									#34
	Re: A simple reason why Bush's SS plan is stupid Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Boshko

I see numbers and a long post, I was lied to about this thread.

	01-04-2005 20:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Now, unless I'm missing something this is how things stand: 1. $s that are currently going to support people on SS are diverted into government-supervised private acount thingies. 2. Since that money is now going into private acount thingies instead of supporting people on SS there's going to be a huge-ass shortfall. 3. To cover the shortfall, the government prints huge stacks of treasury bonds and sells them to investors. 4. The private accounts then make a ****-load of money, since stocks have a higher return than treasury bonds and all this money makes everything happy and wonderful. So basically the whole thing is based on the premise that stocks are a better investment than government bonds (the current content of the SS trust fund) and that by having SS taxes go into buying stocks everyone's going to make a ****-load of money, right? So basically the government is gambling that stocks will have a significantly higher future return than treasury bonds? Or am I missing something? But in order to make this whole thing work you need someone to buy all those HUGE stacks of treasury bonds that will be needed to fund the SS checks of the current retirees while the money that's going to them now is diverted into private account thingies. These are the very same treasury bonds that are apparently a crap investment. So, in short, for Bush's SS plan to work you have the smart government buying the high yield stocks and the stupid private investors buying the low yield government bonds. The whole plan doesn't make any sense unless it assumes that the government is a smarter invester than private investors who'll need to buy ****-loads of treasury bonds in order to fund the whole thing. WTF! Isn't that kind of thinking supposed to be punishable by death by republicans or something?

ok after having read your post:
In addition to being a pyramid scheme SS is being used to cover for government shortfalls in other areas, so yea any attempt to protect people's money is going to hurt on both accounts.

	01-04-2005 20:39									#36
	Re: A simple reason why Bush's SS plan is stupid Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Boshko Now, unless I'm missing something this is how things stand: 1. $s that are currently going to support people on SS are diverted into government-supervised private acount thingies. 2. Since that money is now going into private acount thingies instead of supporting people on SS there's going to be a huge-ass shortfall. 3. To cover the shortfall, the government prints huge stacks of treasury bonds and sells them to investors. 4. The private accounts then make a ****-load of money, since stocks have a higher return than treasury bonds and all this money makes everything happy and wonderful. So basically the whole thing is based on the premise that stocks are a better investment than government bonds (the current content of the SS trust fund) and that by having SS taxes go into buying stocks everyone's going to make a ****-load of money, right? So basically the government is gambling that stocks will have a significantly higher future return than treasury bonds? Or am I missing something? But in order to make this whole thing work you need someone to buy all those HUGE stacks of treasury bonds that will be needed to fund the SS checks of the current retirees while the money that's going to them now is diverted into private account thingies. These are the very same treasury bonds that are apparently a crap investment. So, in short, for Bush's SS plan to work you have the smart government buying the high yield stocks and the stupid private investors buying the low yield government bonds. The whole plan doesn't make any sense unless it assumes that the government is a smarter invester than private investors who'll need to buy ****-loads of treasury bonds in order to fund the whole thing. WTF! Isn't that kind of thinking supposed to be punishable by death by republicans or something?

Essentially the net addition in investment will be in the bonds of course. That makes sense because there will be more bonds, not more stocks. People invested in stocks will take profits and invest that in the low priced bonds.

	01-04-2005 20:52									#37
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The Republicans have apparently decided to destroy the government with unsupportable debt, working on the theory that, when the Revolution comes, all these fat-cat welfare mothers and exploitive union organizers will be swinging from the lampposts and that the streets will run blue with liberal blood!

They may not be entirely realistic in their envisioning of those consequences however.

	01-04-2005 21:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't really care if his plan is good or not.

Out of the frying pan, into the fire, as long as it's change it's good? My respect for you diminishes daily.

	01-04-2005 21:17									#39
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Here is a compelling reason why Bush's plan is stupid.

Doing nothing and just paying for the current system - $1 trillion over 50 years.

Bush's plan to phase out Social Security - $2 trillion over 40 years.

Currently upper income people don't pay one red cent of Social Security taxes on money made over $90k per year. If that cap was removed and these people actually paid taxes on all of their earnings, as middle and lower income people must, then Social Security is completely balanced at least until 2100. Source for all figures is the Congressional Budget Office.

You won't hear Bush mention these facts though because he's a whore for the stock brokers and money managers who want to fleece American seniors and charge them billions to manage their private accounts.

	01-04-2005 21:24									#40
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I thought Bush's plan was to take 4% of the payroll tax and place that into private accounts. 96% percent would still go to fund retirement payments.

I think one of the reasons dems oppose the plan is that it favors blacks. Blacks now don't live long enough to get much benefit from SS. If they had these personal accounts, at least that would go to their heirs.

	01-04-2005 21:25									#41
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Sure... Democrats hate blacks. Nedaverse alert!

Ned if you were a doctor would you recomend a cure which is worse then the original disease? Currently we'll have to borrow $1 trillion over 50 years (starting in 2052) to fund social security but Bush's plan will cost $2 trillion (starting in 2013). Bush's plan is worse then doing nothing! It costs twice as much and causes the system to go broke 40 years sooner!

	01-04-2005 21:27									#42
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Oerdin, no. They take advantage of them. Further, they will not permit the Republicans to do anything that will get Blacks to vote Republican. Thus all the smoke and mirrors and downright lies coming out of the Democrat camp that is designed to keep the Blacks confused and in the Democrat camp.

	01-04-2005 21:27									#43
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Let him do it. It will only hasten the inevitable.

	01-04-2005 21:30									#44
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Ned, the smoke and mirrors are all coming from Republicans. The Republicans control Congress but the CBO still says Bush is full of crap with his Social Security phase out plan.

	01-04-2005 21:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think one of the reasons dems oppose the plan is that it favors blacks. Blacks now don't live long enough to get much benefit from SS. If they had these personal accounts, at least that would go to their heirs.

Young black males in gangs die young. Black people who work live as long as everyone else.

	01-04-2005 21:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Personally, I'd cut benefits and raise the retirement age.

Eliminate the earnings cap and the problem almost entirely goes away. That's the CBO's conclusion as quoted in several Krugman articles which Gepap has been kind enough to periodically link.

	01-04-2005 21:34									#47
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Yes, the average life span of blacks is low due to lots of very early deaths. But people who die very early also don't pay a lot into Social Security.

So blacks are not disadvantaged by Social Security. This is simply a statistical lie.

	01-04-2005 21:36									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Young black males in gangs die young. Black people who work live as long as everyone else.

I could accept this. However, I have heard differently in that blacks as a whole do not live long enough to take advantage of SS.

	01-04-2005 21:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Where do you think your Social Security money is going now? Into a big hole where the government keeps it until you get it back? Right now its going to pay for the SS checks of someone's grandmother. I

That's only partially right. For the last 72 years Social Security has been in surplus and it will remain in surplus for around the next ten years. Over that 80 year period Congress required that the surplus funds be used to buy t-bills so the Social Security Administration actually has liquid assets to fund the program at least until 2052 without any changes. So some of the money went to grandma and some of it was saved.

	01-04-2005 21:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Eliminate the earnings cap and the problem almost entirely goes away. That's the CBO's conclusion as quoted in several Krugman articles which Gepap has been kind enough to periodically link.

Oerdin, I think part of the problem is that benefits continue to rise faster than the economy, even while the number of people supporting the retirees is dwindling. This burdens the economy in an unacceptable way, according to Greenspan.

	01-04-2005 21:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I could accept this. However, I have heard differently in that blacks as a whole do not live long enough to take advantage of SS.

If you don't count blacks that die before contributing a significant amount to SS I think the difference in benefits recieved is small.

	01-04-2005 21:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What have they proposed?

The CBO is a joint office and it has proposed a combination of the following. Eliminating the salary cap, adjusting retirement ages, increasing payroll taxes, or decreasing benifets. The CBO believes raising or eliminating the salary cap along with adjusting the retirement age of future retires in response to longer life spans is those best options.

	01-04-2005 21:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin assets

Actually it's contra assets.

	01-04-2005 21:42									#54
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Actually, older blacks suffer from heart disease and diabetes at a greater rate than the rest of the population. So, they do die younger (even after correcting for the gang violence).

	01-04-2005 21:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How can any young person support Social Security in its current form?

Because it works and with minor changes (removing the salary cap) it will be solvent for at least the next 100 years? Markets go up, markets go down, but a senior can always count on Social Security no matter what. It isn't a lot and it shouldn't be anyone's sole source of retirement funds but it is something and it is 100% assured. Nothing else is assured to a senior.

	01-04-2005 21:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It's not a scam. it's a good plan for smart people such as myself, while stupid people lose all their money in the stock market on stupid stock picks.

Poor Bastard.

	01-04-2005 21:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, no. They take advantage of them. Further, they will not permit the Republicans to do anything that will get Blacks to vote Republican.

We control all three branches of government, but the Democrats won't let us do anything!!!! Wanhhhhh!!!!

Black people won't vote GOP because the GOP is full of the same people who, 40 years ago, tried to stop Black people from voting at all.

	01-04-2005 21:53									#58
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I love how the Rush Limbaugh set claims EVERYTHING is the Democrats fault dispite the fact that Republicans control every branch of government. Could it be they just can't take responsability for their own actions?

	01-04-2005 21:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Actually, older blacks suffer from heart disease and diabetes at a greater rate than the rest of the population. So, they do die younger (even after correcting for the gang violence).

SS is insurance, so they still get a benefit.

	01-04-2005 21:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, I think part of the problem is that benefits continue to rise faster than the economy, even while the number of people supporting the retirees is dwindling. This burdens the economy in an unacceptable way, according to Greenspan.

And Bush's solution is... to burden the economy twice as much? There is no getting around the fact that Bush's solution costs $2 trillion and doing nothing costs $1 trillion. That's twice the cost even a child knows that's a bad deal.