03-04-2005 04:12									#1
	What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver?

In a current pbem I recently built this SP; good yes but what exactly does it deliver.?
Is it just the +2 support.

Here's the official text.

Decreases minerals required to support military units: +2 support on Social Engineering table.

So does the decreases minerals really mean just +2 Support, which means supporting some extra units free per base which itself depends on other settings to determine the effect.

And does it mean if you change all your units to clean, this SP becomes meaningless.

I ask because a search of Apolyton and Civgaming gives no clear guidance on this.

The other recorded benefit is that the democracy SE support setting of -2 negative is negated.

So is that it?

	03-04-2005 04:24									#2
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I kinda assumed this SP would reduce my military maintenance costs by half or thereabouts. But that does not seem to be the way it works. So how does it work?

	03-04-2005 04:26									#3
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Also other unit costs, such as formers and transports, how are they effected?

	03-04-2005 04:27									#4
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A lot of things in SMAC are like this...

The first part, the part about it reducing amount of minerals needed, is what it would do in real life...the game just represents this effect by giving you plus 2 support...that's all you get...

	03-04-2005 05:01									#5
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In regard to running Clean units, I'm quite sure as I haven't checked ingame yet, but I would assume that if you're running all clean units, it would basically null the effects of the Living Refinery.

But to convert every single unit under your command to clean units would cost a heck of a lot of credits...

	03-04-2005 05:10									#6
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As far as I know, the extent of its effect is +2 support. As to how valued this is by the game designers, consider what affects support:

Democracy: +2 growth, +2 effic, -2 support
Thought Control: +2 probe, +2 morale, +2 police, -3 support
Police State: +2 police, -2 effic, +2 support
Power: +2 morale, -2 industry, +2 support

In my games, getting the Living Refinery means taking my support from -2 to 0 (or, with Yang, +2 to +4), which facilitates another round of colony pods, by this time with drop pods.

	03-04-2005 15:51									#7
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It's mainly for the militaristic factions since it just increases support. So it lets anybody with an already high support hit the golden milestone of +4support, so all large bases can support like 14 units each no problem. It makes mass producing armies extremely easy since you don't need to tag on clean reactors (I've produced around 150+ choppers per turn for 10 turns doing this, fun but time consuming )

	04-04-2005 12:42									#8
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I really like this SP when I go for popboom because it nullifies the bad -2 support of Demo.

All units except clean/crawl/probe count in the support calc.

The +2 affects SUPPORT in SE wich have the following values (taken from helpx.txt) :

#;SUPPORT
#HELPEFFECT2
{SUPPORT} affects the support costs of military units. The lower
your score here, the more of your units you'll have to expend
$LINK to support.
^
^-4, Each unit costs 2 to support; no free minerals for new base.
^-3, Each unit costs 1 to support; no free minerals for new base.
^-2, Support 1 unit free per base; no free minerals for new base.
^-1, Support 1 unit free per base
^ 0, Support 2 units free per base
^ 1, Support 3 units free per base
^ 2, Support 4 units free per base!
^ 3, Support 4 units OR up to base size for free!!

	04-04-2005 13:54									#9
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IIRC, the "reduces support" part of this SP means that every unit that requires support only needs 1/2 a mineral to support, not a full mineral.

	04-04-2005 14:24									#10
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Nope. It means that your SE SUPPORT setting goes from for example -2 to 0 meaning that instead of only supporting 1 unit and no free min, you can support 2 units and get 10 min for new bases.

	04-04-2005 18:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan In regard to running Clean units, I'm quite sure as I haven't checked ingame yet, but I would assume that if you're running all clean units, it would basically null the effects of the Living Refinery. But to convert every single unit under your command to clean units would cost a heck of a lot of credits...

I never run ALL clean units since I can always find a use for a drop AAA for instance or a SAM artillery . . .

So if you get this SP you might stop building or upgrading to clean units. So its never useless. Personally, I see it as a "nice-to-have" but I never make a huge effort to get it

	04-04-2005 19:07									#12
	Re: What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Hercules And does it mean if you change all your units to clean, this SP becomes meaningless.

This is true, but if you can do this, then you aren't playing hard enough. There plenty of units you can't make clean.

SAM Artillery
Deep Radar Artillery
Deep Radar SAM Jets/Choppers
Trance Empath Ships/Rovers
Deep Radar AAA Ships
Deep Radar SAM Ships
Etc. etc. etc.

And thoses are only early to mid game units. By the time you get the LR you have Carriers, Subs, Cloaking, Nano-cells, Anti-grav struts. There are more than enough reasons to want a decent Support rating even after making all your garrison/former/police units clean.

	04-04-2005 21:23									#13
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How good is sam artillery? I imagine it does well because noodlejets have little armour? Does it hit stacks?

	04-04-2005 22:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro How good is sam artillery? I imagine it does well because noodlejets have little armour? Does it hit stacks?

Its mainly built by most players for use against locusts ( and worms) since it does hit stacks and will deal out HUGE amounts of damage against them such that it is easy to mop up the stack.

But it can be used against needles/interceptors as well although if playing against humans, they are unlikely to stack many units. Planes are so vulnerable to SAM ground units that it is hardly even necessary to hit them with the arty barrage first.

	04-04-2005 22:33									#15
	Re: Re: What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by livid imp This is true, but if you can do this, then you aren't playing hard enough. There plenty of units you can't make clean. SAM Artillery Deep Radar Artillery Deep Radar SAM Jets/Choppers Trance Empath Ships/Rovers Deep Radar AAA Ships Deep Radar SAM Ships Etc. etc. etc. And thoses are only early to mid game units. By the time you get the LR you have Carriers, Subs, Cloaking, Nano-cells, Anti-grav struts. There are more than enough reasons to want a decent Support rating even after making all your garrison/former/police units clean.

All good units . . . The only one I almost never build is an empath trance unit but thats because my playstyle generally is to have dedicated offensive and defensive units rather than all-purpose units

My main inability to use clean comes from my use of the police and drop abilities usually in conjunction with AA defenses. For example, when I capture a base my first build is usually a scout that gets upgraded to police AA and stays there as the garrison. Meanwhile my droppers are probably Drop AA and Drop ECM (less prevalent)

To me, the most prevalent use for "clean" is on the formers. Once you make the formers clean, I find taht with most factions, the support issue is minimal and can be handled bases by base . After all, you don't want to wast cash on clean for units that would have been supported free based on the existing SE situation

	04-04-2005 22:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro How good is sam artillery? I imagine it does well because noodlejets have little armour? Does it hit stacks?

Let me put it this way, once you get SAM Arty, feel free to go crazy with your eco damage.

	04-04-2005 23:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Let me put it this way, once you get SAM Arty, feel free to go crazy with your eco damage.

Agreed. A few SAM Arty plus some empath units and you never fear natives again . . . In fact its just cash cash cash.

I still hate the sea level rises though. Instead of raising land, I wish you could set a former to "protect" a tile. I hate that the only way bto save a tile is to raise it up and possibly raise an adjacent ocean tile to become land

	05-04-2005 00:15									#18
	Re: Re: Re: What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Flubber All good units . . . The only one I almost never build is an empath trance unit but thats because my playstyle generally is to have dedicated offensive and defensive units rather than all-purpose units.

My main use for these units is upgrading exploring rovers in the field for popping pods and trolling fungus. Once they hit elite morale (which they do fairly quickly), I bring em home and upgrade them into combat units. Obviously these units are mostly pointless on a Rare Natives world.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber To me, the most prevalent use for "clean" is on the formers. Once you make the formers clean, I find taht with most factions, the support issue is minimal and can be handled bases by base . After all, you don't want to wast cash on clean for units that would have been supported free based on the existing SE situation

If you are not running FM, don't foget those little Clean, Police 1-1-1's. Cheap to mass produce. With a +3 Police rating, 3 of these bad boys can suppress 9 drones. They also are extra bodies to slow down an enemy thrust long enough to move-in/buy reinforcements.

	05-04-2005 00:31									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Re: What exactly does the Living Refinery deliver? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by livid imp If you are not running FM, don't foget those little Clean, Police 1-1-1's. Cheap to mass produce. With a +3 Police rating, 3 of these bad boys can suppress 9 drones. They also are extra bodies to slow down an enemy thrust long enough to move-in/buy reinforcements.

Forget them?? As the Hive I live and die by them. So cheap to build and effective that a rec commons seems expensive by comparison

	05-04-2005 01:29									#20
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Ultimately, late game, the only units I build are grav ships...occasionally I might build a few artillery units...

I call it the Mass Production of Planet...in one turn, I disband all my units, every single one, and crank out grav ships with the best armor and weapon...usually all of them are equipped with clean reactor, and most are equipped with either empath for eco control or blink displacer so no base is safe from my wrath...

With -8 police and -2 support, there's no point in having non-lethal methods...trance ability is nil since you really should be attacking first to get the extra cash...you really don't need arty..even though it is nice, not critical for military campaigns, atleast mid to late game...no point in having trained units...

I usually have a few variations...all grav ships...all with clean reactors...the only special abilities I use are...

Empath
Blink Displacer
SAM
Cloaking Device

If it is a gravship former, then I'll have either superformer or funguicidal...

	05-04-2005 03:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Ultimately, late game, the only units I build are grav ships...occasionally I might build a few artillery units... I call it the Mass Production of Planet...in one turn, I disband all my units, every single one, and crank out grav ships with the best armor and weapon...usually all of them are equipped with clean reactor, and most are equipped with either empath for eco control or blink displacer so no base is safe from my wrath...

After you did this once, wouldn't it get real old. I would have to conquer the AI long before

	05-04-2005 12:35									#22
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Wow, Flubber I'm impressed. I never thought you'd be a Hiver. Yeah, I agree with the Living Refinery. I usually get this because I normally have so many friggin unit in play that to upgrade them to clean takes a smackload of credits...and having that extra boost of Support never fails.

and yes, all those 1-1-1 Clean Police are really fun to have...it just enhances the Hiverian mentality.

Flubber is a secret Hiverian.

	05-04-2005 20:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan and yes, all those 1-1-1 Clean Police are really fun to have...it just enhances the Hiverian mentality.

And don't forget to rename them "Donut Garrison"

	05-04-2005 21:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Wow, Flubber I'm impressed. I never thought you'd be a Hiver. Yeah, I agree with the Living Refinery. I usually get this because I normally have so many friggin unit in play that to upgrade them to clean takes a smackload of credits...and having that extra boost of Support never fails. and yes, all those 1-1-1 Clean Police are really fun to have...it just enhances the Hiverian mentality. Flubber is a secret Hiverian.

I play ALL factions and the Hive ranks up there. I even play the cult for fun

	06-04-2005 11:55									#25
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Awwwwww, why'd you have to go and ruin my fun?

(although I'll admit I play the Believers every now and then. But I don't play Morgan or Lal. Their ideologies always leave a bad taste in my mouth)

Kind of like drinking milk that's been in the sun all day.

	06-04-2005 18:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Awwwwww, why'd you have to go and ruin my fun? (although I'll admit I play the Believers every now and then. But I don't play Morgan or Lal. Their ideologies always leave a bad taste in my mouth) Kind of like drinking milk that's been in the sun all day.

I never cared what the ideologies of the factions were.

The fun of the cult is that typical worm rush. Its a hoot

	06-04-2005 18:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nope. It means that your SE SUPPORT setting goes from for example -2 to 0 meaning that instead of only supporting 1 unit and no free min, you can support 2 units and get 10 min for new bases.

Actually, I meant in addition to the bonuses to support, the actual support costs themselves would also drop (ie. Less units require support after +2 bonus, and each that does require support requires less minerals). Maybe I'm remembering wrong. *Shrugs*

	06-04-2005 19:07									#28
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Certainly not pizza, which is a shame, because the number of times I've gone hours past the time I should have prepared some food when the gameplay just became too engrossing and I could really have done witha Living Refinery delivered wood fired pizza oven complete with just baked margherita pizza....

	06-04-2005 21:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Certainly not pizza, which is a shame, because the number of times I've gone hours past the time I should have prepared some food when the gameplay just became too engrossing and I could really have done witha Living Refinery delivered wood fired pizza oven complete with just baked margherita pizza....

Ya now that would be a game . . . . one that realized how long you had been addictively playing "just one more turn" and automatically called for some pizza

	06-04-2005 22:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Actually, I meant in addition to the bonuses to support, the actual support costs themselves would also drop (ie. Less units require support after +2 bonus, and each that does require support requires less minerals). Maybe I'm remembering wrong. *Shrugs*

This is the question I was posing or meant to pose at the beginning; did those actual military support costs also drop?

It kinda gives that impression. Also say, for the sake of argument, your bases supports a scout, 1 transport, 3 formers and 2 noodles. The +2 extra support would take up the transport and some of the formers as supported units
(depending on current support setting), plus the 10 mins in building new units, but the actual reduction in military support costs is harder to pin down (if it exists?).

Facility maintenance costs you can identify through the energy per base. Mineral costs through the mineral production less unit support cost here.

I just checked there is no redcution in cost per unit.

However the tremendous benefits of a +4 support rating cannot be overlooked. Wow!