03-04-2005 23:57									#1
	Biggest Mistakes the Allies made iyo. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This spin-off of Spec's thread is a reaction to the comment there that the Nazi Germans were stupid and made mistake after mistake. I have a feeling that if we put our heads together, we can show that the Allies were nearly as stupid.

Allied Mistakes:

1) Trusting in "impregnable" fortresses, such as the Maginot Line, Singapore, Pearl Harbor.

2) Early in the war, underestimating the effectiveness of airpower and tanks.

3) Failing in intelligence permitting Axis sneak attacks: Pearl Harbor, Operation Barbarosa, Battle of the Bulge.

4) Pre-war appeasement.

5) Lousy equipment, esp. in the years leading up to the war.

(*) On a moral level, the firebombing of Dresden, Toyko and other Japanese cities. This mistake didn't affect the outcome of the war, but did result in the unnecessary deaths of hundreds and thousands of civilians.

	04-04-2005 01:00									#2
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sending forces to greece in 1940 (which were almost entirely ineffective) instead of taking tripolitania after we defeated the italians in eygpt and cyrenacia. we could have prevented rommel from landing in north africa altogether.

	04-04-2005 01:14									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler This spin-off of Spec's thread is a reaction to the comment there that the Nazi Germans were stupid and made mistake after mistake. I have a feeling that if we put our heads together, we can show that the Allies were nearly as stupid. Allied Mistakes: 1) Trusting in "impregnable" fortresses, such as the Maginot Line, Singapore, Pearl Harbor.

Actually, the Maginot Line was impregnable. The mistake they made was in not guarding the Ardennes.

	04-04-2005 01:18									#4
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The French wanted to. The Belgians would not let them...

	04-04-2005 01:20									#5
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Damn those Belgicans.

	04-04-2005 04:33									#6
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"Peace with honor...peace in our time."

That still cracks me up.

	04-04-2005 04:43									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, the Maginot Line was impregnable. The mistake they made was in not guarding the Ardennes.

However by the time that German forces in the west had pinned the British at Dunkirk in the east their forces had been able to break through parts of the Maginot line. In many areas the Germans had been able to destroy the fortifications using explosives placed by engineers accompanying storm troopers. The French had relied too heavily on enclosed defenses. They should have placed some troops topside to keep engineers away from the parapets.

	04-04-2005 04:45									#8
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Probably the allies biggest mistake was to not pay sufficient attention to the role of communications in modern warfare. Allied armor was particularily hampered by a lack of radios.

	04-04-2005 05:18									#9
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Well, putting the West Coast fleet into Pearl Harbour strikes me as a no brainer...

... that's with hind sight, of course. I daresay there's plenty more US ones but I'll stick to what I know.

British ones

1) Singapore defences - guns couldn't traverse towards causeway and were only supplied with AP ammo anyway.

2) Singapore (again) - not training infantry for jungle warfare (only Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders did).

3) The Dambusters raid - killed 10s of 1,000s of civilians but had almost no impact on German war production.

4) Refusing to fit 17 pdr gun into Sherman (Firefly was the fruit of efforts by junior officers, not officially sanctioned). Churchill was harangued in Parliament about this ("Please display a Tiger and one of ours for comparison".) His lame answer was that not a tank could be spared.

5) Propaganda leaflet drops. Complete waste of effort.

6) Lack of decent naval fighters. Seafire was good at low level but had a crummy range.

etc, etc, etc

	04-04-2005 06:19									#10
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Not taking Berlin was the biggest blooper, along with agreeing to Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. The Western allies were far too compliant with Soviet demands on war strategy.

	04-04-2005 06:25									#11
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The Allies didn't take Berlin?

What planet are you on? The Russians were part of the Allies, whether you like it or not.

	04-04-2005 06:26									#12
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HOI2 doesn't agree with you.

	04-04-2005 06:27									#13
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quote: On a moral level, the firebombing of Dresden, Toyko and other Japanese cities. This mistake didn't affect the outcome of the war, but did result in the unnecessary deaths of hundreds and thousands of civilians.

What exactly was unnecessary about bombing Japan's capital and largest urban area?

	04-04-2005 06:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy The Allies didn't take Berlin? What planet are you on? The Russians were part of the Allies, whether you like it or not.

go and take your pills will ya

The Western allies could have taken Berlin but didn't.

	04-04-2005 06:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse go and take your pills will ya The Western allies could have taken Berlin but didn't.

In the long run would it have made any difference if they had? eventually the soviets left all of eastern europe anyway. Taking Berlin would have meant thousands of additional western allied casualities with the result that thousands families alive and well today would never have even existed.

Furthermore, the economic contrast visible in divided countries like Germany and Korea probably played a siginificant role in the eventual abandonment of communism.

	04-04-2005 06:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Taking Berlin would have meant thousands of additional western allied casualities

Not necessarily - the German armies in the West were collapsing. It could have been done but Eisenhower did not grasp the strategic and symobolic importance of capturing Berlin, whereas Stalin did - he feigned disinterest - which the Americans naively believed - but then ordered his best generals to take it and set Zhukov and Koniev in a race to do so.

	04-04-2005 06:55									#17
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Russian troop deployment summer of '41. Stalin should have at least considered the possibility of a defensive war against Germany, and had some sort of defensive-in-depth set up, such that much of the Soviet army was trapped in Barbarossa.

French conception of tank warfare. France had tanks spread through infantry divisions as mobile fire support, but with the result that German tank divisions were much more mobile, and with a much stronger anti-armor capability. This may have proved decisive, as the allies were unable to shift enough forces to even really slow the German advance out of Belgium.

Complete lack of attention to anti-submarine capabilities in the pre-war. England had a serious problem with them in 1917, and yet basically neglected the field for all of the pre-war period.

	04-04-2005 12:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Well, putting the West Coast fleet into Pearl Harbour strikes me as a no brainer... ... that's with hind sight, of course. I daresay there's plenty more US ones but I'll stick to what I know. British ones 1) Singapore defences - guns couldn't traverse towards causeway and were only supplied with AP ammo anyway. 2) Singapore (again) - not training infantry for jungle warfare (only Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders did). 3) The Dambusters raid - killed 10s of 1,000s of civilians but had almost no impact on German war production. 4) Refusing to fit 17 pdr gun into Sherman (Firefly was the fruit of efforts by junior officers, not officially sanctioned). Churchill was harangued in Parliament about this ("Please display a Tiger and one of ours for comparison".) His lame answer was that not a tank could be spared. 5) Propaganda leaflet drops. Complete waste of effort. 6) Lack of decent naval fighters. Seafire was good at low level but had a crummy range. etc, etc, etc

The U.S. always brings most of it's fleet in before christmas time, we still do it today.

And the battleships getting destroyed at Pearl Harbour was a good thing. The people dying was bad of course. But it taught the U.S. the effectiveness in air power, and forced the U.S. to utilize aircraft carriers.

	04-04-2005 14:18									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Failing in intelligence permitting Axis sneak attacks: Pearl Harbor, Operation Barbarosa, Battle of the Bulge.

AFAIK, at least several intelligence sources (including a Soviet and a Chinese one) found out about Tora! Tora! Tora! and passed the info to the US. They ignored it, though.

Bulge is no biggie IMO. The Nazis would still be doomed if they managed to drive the Western Front back.

	04-04-2005 14:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral Russian troop deployment summer of '41. Stalin should have at least considered the possibility of a defensive war against Germany, and had some sort of defensive-in-depth set up, such that much of the Soviet army was trapped in Barbarossa.

He was deploying to attack the Nazis.

quote: Originally posted by Admiral French conception of tank warfare. France had tanks spread through infantry divisions as mobile fire support, but with the result that German tank divisions were much more mobile, and with a much stronger anti-armor capability.

The Soviets were the same during the early stages of the War. By Kursk, however, they had learned to rely on massed armor charges.

	04-04-2005 17:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Not necessarily - the German armies in the West were collapsing. It could have been done but Eisenhower did not grasp the strategic and symobolic importance of capturing Berlin, whereas Stalin did - he feigned disinterest - which the Americans naively believed - but then ordered his best generals to take it and set Zhukov and Koniev in a race to do so.

What Eisenhower grasped didn't matter. The partitioning of Germany was decided upon months before at Yalta by the politicians. In fact Germany was originally divided into 4 zones, one for each of the major allied powers. There wasn't a definite plan to re-assemble Germany either. The French, British, and Americans created the FRG only after the Soviets declared their zone to be a sovreign nation.

	04-04-2005 17:20									#22
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Imagining that the Japanese were incapable of doing certain things because of their race.


Imagining they were unbeatable on land- had they asked the Russians they could have told them otherwise.

	04-04-2005 19:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger He was deploying to attack the Nazis.

Precisely. The mistake was that even as he was preparing to break the nonaggression pact, he never considered that Hitler might be doing the same.

	04-04-2005 19:37									#24
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First off, you've got the Beglian's cowardly and generally despicable surprise surrender, which left gaping holes in the allied line and made it much easier for the Germans to encirlce the allies and very nearly led to the annihilation of the BEF.

Stalin's idiotic orders for his soldiers to hold their ground at all costs during Barbarossa, which made it vastly easier for them to be encircled.

	04-04-2005 19:50									#25
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1. UK using too much of the RAF for bombing raids on Germany instead of on antisub warfare. While the raids did some damage, the planes would have been much more strategically effective in ASW.

2. US not sharing the Norden bombsight with the UK - could have improved the effectiveness of UK bombing raids.

3. UK putting troops in Greece, instead of winning North Africa, as mentioned above.

4. Fletcher screwing around at Coral Sea, which could have been a more decisive victory

5. MacArthur failing to launch his PI based bombers against Japs airforce in Taiwan as soon as news of Pearl came in, resulting in them being destroyed on the ground.

6. US navy using second rate torpedoes early in the war.

7. US failing to implement blackouts in first months of war, which helped German coastal uboat efforts.


Thats just to start with.

	04-04-2005 20:05									#26
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1. MacArthur failing to launch his PI based bombers against Japs airforce in Taiwan as soon as news of Pearl came in, resulting in them being destroyed on the ground. (see above)
2. MacArthur's criminally-negligent efforts to prepare the armed forces available in the Philippines for the Japanese invasion.
3. MacArthur's abysmal generalship during the Japanese invasion of the Philippines.
4. MarArthur's failure to move supplies to Bataan, where they were needed during the Japanese invasion of the Philippines.
5. MacArthur's cowardly flight from the Philippines, leaving the troops under his command to suffer during the Bantaan Death Marth.
6. MacArthur's idiotic and egotistical efforts to retake the Philippines, which diverted resources from efforts to get the US within range of the Japanese home islands and prolonged the war.
7. MacArthur's failure to purge the Japanese government of fascist scum post-war.
8. MacArthur's general ass-hattery.

	04-04-2005 20:33									#27
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I'm getting the sensation that Boshko doesn't entirely approve of MacArthur... I'm not sure where... it's very faint, but I can definately feel it.

	04-04-2005 20:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'm getting the sensation that Boshko doesn't entirely approve of MacArthur... I'm not sure where... it's very faint, but I can definately feel it.

That's the tip of the iceberg of my feelings for the veteran-murdering fascist POS

	04-04-2005 20:50									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: On a moral level, the firebombing of Dresden, Toyko and other Japanese cities. This mistake didn't affect the outcome of the war, but did result in the unnecessary deaths of hundreds and thousands of civilians. What exactly was unnecessary about bombing Japan's capital and largest urban area?

Because they were essentially civilian, not military targets.

The Nazis made the same mistake when the shifted their emphasis from trying to destroy the RAF to bombing London.

	04-04-2005 20:55									#30
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Didn't the Japanese Strike the Phillipinnes at almost the exact same time as Pearl Harbor? Besides, what would strikes vs Formosa have done? Gotten the bombers shot up in the air, then to come back to decimated bases?

On Berlin- the Germans would have gladly surrendered to the western allies, but politically it would have been inpractical, and in the end only accerbated tensions between the western allies and the USSR immidiately. Given that the Soviets had fought the vast bulk of the land war vs. the Nazi's, they saw Berlin as their prize and their alone- who knows how they might have reacted had tyhe western allies sought to deny them that prize.

Also, the USSR was NOT planning to invade Germany. I don't know where people get this.