20-04-2005 21:31									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson You'd have to prove such case for Jesus or St Paul... Until then...

Personally, I can't find good arguments against the use of condoms in the bible.
And as you should know yourself, there's this funny little thing called tradition in the Catholic church, and hating the body is pretty much a product of neoplatonic influenced theologians, like St. Augustine.

	20-04-2005 22:04									#302
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I personally think that the Catholic Church should recognize gay couples as loving couples. From a spiritual point of view, Jesus greatest teaching is that love is above all. If you drop the idea that homosexuality is sin, and adopt the idea that sexual orientation is one element of human diversity, then the Christian thing to do is to make it easier for the people to love and commit to each other

	20-04-2005 22:19									#303
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Not to mention that jezus way gay too.

All he did was steal married men from their wives, give them different names (Petrus, hard like a rock!!! ) and then start up a male only club...you do the math.

	20-04-2005 22:23									#304
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Lies! Jesus was bi, as my sig attests.

	20-04-2005 23:23									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Personally, I can't find good arguments against the use of condoms in the bible. And as you should know yourself, there's this funny little thing called tradition in the Catholic church, and hating the body is pretty much a product of neoplatonic influenced theologians, like St. Augustine.

Jesus and Fathers of the Church did not say everything. We should expand their teachings.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I personally think that the Catholic Church should recognize gay couples as loving couples. From a spiritual point of view, Jesus greatest teaching is that love is above all. If you drop the idea that homosexuality is sin, and adopt the idea that sexual orientation is one element of human diversity, then the Christian thing to do is to make it easier for the people to love and commit to each other

Sexual orientation is just a name, and a misleading one.
Even if homosexuality is not a disease but it's determined before our birth, and it's not proven beyond any doubt - at least some of homosexuals become them due to circumstances- it has no biological purpouse and it is not "natural". "Orientation" name suggests that it's just a matter of opinion or individual preferences, of which all are the same. It is not. Homosexuality is a "deviation" (by which i do not mean anything wrong, just I don't know a better word), but not very harmful to society, so it should not be banned, and homosexuals should not be persecuted in any way.
However, You can't put a "=" sign between homosexual and heterosexual relationship.

quote: Originally posted by alva Not to mention that jezus way gay too. All he did was steal married men from their wives, give them different names (Petrus, hard like a rock!!! ) and then start up a male only club...you do the math.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Lies! Jesus was bi, as my sig attests.

You're both pathetic

	20-04-2005 23:29									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson However, You can't put a "=" sign between homosexual and heterosexual relationship.

Yes, but on the "love" side of things, a homosexual couple can feel just as much love and commitment as a heterosexual one. Even thoughhomosexual couples can be less beneficial to society than heterosexual ones (in that they can't reproduce), why should such a relatively trifle matter like that prevent the Catholic Church from celebrating what it is about : love?

	20-04-2005 23:30									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson at least some of homosexuals become them due to circumstances

	20-04-2005 23:42									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Odin

I don't understand why you roll your eyes... Are you that keen of genetic behavioural theories that you forget that behaviour can come from nurture as well?

	21-04-2005 06:36									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I personally think that the Catholic Church should recognize gay couples as loving couples. From a spiritual point of view, Jesus greatest teaching is that love is above all. If you drop the idea that homosexuality is sin, and adopt the idea that sexual orientation is one element of human diversity, then the Christian thing to do is to make it easier for the people to love and commit to each other

God himself said no to homosexuality.

	21-04-2005 07:52									#310
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did not

	21-04-2005 14:01									#311
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quote: You're both pathetic

That thruth really isn't working out for you, is it.

quote: and it's not proven beyond any doubt

Ah, but god is?? or even jezus for that matter.

	22-04-2005 00:21									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Odin

What?

quote: Originally posted by alva quote: You're both pathetic That thruth really isn't working out for you, is it.

"Don't believe the devil, even if He says truth"
I could say, but simpler answer is that You don't know what the truth is.

quote: and it's not proven beyond any doubt

Ah, but god is?? or even jezus for that matter. [/QUOTE]

Jesus is more proven then many other historical figures.
And God is not a scientific theory that You can prove or disprove. He IS for the believers.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yes, but on the "love" side of things, a homosexual couple can feel just as much love and commitment as a heterosexual one. Even thoughhomosexual couples can be less beneficial to society than heterosexual ones (in that they can't reproduce), why should such a relatively trifle matter like that prevent the Catholic Church from celebrating what it is about : love?

But catholic marriage is not, or rather was not originally, about love. It was about procreation, which was the only excuse for it.
If a pair of males can't reproduce, it's a sign from God it is not good. "You will recognise the tree by its fruit" said Jesus. He also said that a tree giving no fruit will be destroyed.

	22-04-2005 02:25									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson If a pair of males can't reproduce, it's a sign from God it is not good. "You will recognise the tree by its fruit" said Jesus. He also said that a tree giving no fruit will be destroyed.

Thre parable about the trees bearing fruit had absolutely nothing to do with sexuality, it was Christ's explanation of why he was starting a "new covenant" to replace the old. In this parable the Hebrew faith of that era was comparable to the fruitless tree, but his new faith, and by extension it's disciples, would "bear fruit".

	22-04-2005 02:26									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Thre parable about the trees bearing fruit had absolutely nothing to do with sexuality, it was Christ's explanation of why he was starting a "new covenant" to replace the old. In this parable the Hebrew faith of that era was comparable to the fruitless tree, but his new faith, and by extension it's disciples, would "bear fruit".

By the way, what Herreson is doing, taking a phrase out of context to make a point, is called Midrash and certain Jesus would have been familiar with such technique, in fact his followers use it often to establish proof texts for Christianity.

	22-04-2005 02:32									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson If a pair of males can't reproduce, it's a sign from God it is not good.

And couples that are sterile I suppose are also abominations?

Homosexuality is certainly "natural" by any honest definition of the word. Every mammal species and quite a few bird species have been proven to exhibit homosexual behavior, including life-long same sex coupling. You can attempt to redefine natural all you want, but it's just disingenuous goal post moving.

And knowing what I know of you, perhaps you should be very careful on this topic.

	22-04-2005 02:43									#316
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I'm not making a proof of it...
But I believe it is justificated.
We can apply the parable wherever we find it suitable. Why not?

	22-04-2005 04:08									#317
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leave the homos alone - the catholic clergy would collapse without them

and if the way he conducted the funeral mass is any guide Benedict XVI is probably a fruit himself

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 22-04-2005 at 04:28

	22-04-2005 11:33									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I'm not making a proof of it... But I believe it is justificated. We can apply the parable wherever we find it suitable. Why not?

You can do it of course,
but if you apply it to another topic than Jesus meant,
you donīt say anything about the opinion Jesus had on this matter.

So if there are no other sayings from Jesus himself concerning marriage and procreation, Christs seem to be also free to believe, that he hadnīt any opinion at all about it (and are also free to have their doubts that the connection the catholic church has drawn here is justified )

	22-04-2005 20:40									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST You can do it of course, but if you apply it to another topic than Jesus meant, you donīt say anything about the opinion Jesus had on this matter. So if there are no other sayings from Jesus himself concerning marriage and procreation, Christs seem to be also free to believe, that he hadnīt any opinion at all about it (and are also free to have their doubts that the connection the catholic church has drawn here is justified )

There are two ways we can deal with this problem. One is to say that if Jesus didn't say anything precise about it, He left it to our conscience. The other is what Muslim scholars would call igtihad, by qiyas in the way I've done it. Reconstructing God's opinion by several means, and in this case by analogy.
Also, St Paul did say that effeminates will not enter Heaven. Good lingual studies should be made though to know what exactly did He mean.

	22-04-2005 20:41									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse leave the homos alone - the catholic clergy would collapse without them and if the way he conducted the funeral mass is any guide Benedict XVI is probably a fruit himself

	22-04-2005 21:07									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't understand why you roll your eyes... Are you that keen of genetic behavioural theories that you forget that behaviour can come from nurture as well?

No, I am not sure about female homosexuality, but research shows that male homosexuality is a combination of genetics and hormonal conditions in the womb. You can't "become gay" from some kind of external influence after birth.

	22-04-2005 21:15									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Odin No, I am not sure about female homosexuality, but research shows that male homosexuality is a combination of genetics and hormonal conditions in the womb. You can't "become gay" from some kind of external influence after birth.

Bah.

Homosexuality -just like heterosexuality- is rarely an either/or. I've heard of research that suggests that most people can be aroused by both sexes, although there are clear preferences. There were as few hardcore homos as there were hardcore straights (people not attracted at all by one sex).

But our way of life (monogamous, favourable to heterosexuality, which depicts sexual orientation as an either/or) makes it so that people have to make one choice. The natural inclination toward a sex might be entirely biologic, but the way people act upon it is nurtured. As such, you can become gay, in that you can choose not to act at all on your inclination toward women. Heck, over here, we have at least two people who became gay.

	22-04-2005 23:30									#323
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And definitely, there are more people "becoming gay" than "becoming hetero", but that has nothing to do with the power of the dark side. This is because everyone is supposed to be hetero "by default", thus an existing - even dominating - orientation towards the own sex can be "overlooked". This is a very interesting process.
I have one friend who is absolutely convinced that he is 100% heterosexual (and he is really sure about it for imself, certainly not pretending to be hetero just for society), yet there were several occasions when he was drunk and 1-2 incidents where you could easily note from outside that he's got a strong homosexual inclination too. It's fascinating how he manages to completely quarantaine those experiences after a few days. I do not have to mention that he is somewhat homophobe and being gay simply would not fit his world view...

	23-04-2005 14:43									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson What exactly do You mean?

Usually, exactly what I say.

" Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves."

Eric Hoffer (1902-83)

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

'1984' by George Orwell (1903-1950)


Congregatio de Propaganda Fide:

prop·a gan·da · (prōpīe-gān de) noun [New Latin, short for Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, -Sacred Congregation for Propagating the Faith (established 1622), from ablative feminine gerundive of Latin propagare, to propagate.]

	23-04-2005 22:35									#325
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Propagation does not (necessarily) mean a lie.
And these quotes are irrelevant.