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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Mostly because of political pressure on the clergy.
Of the ones of XX century, after the church got free from foreign interventions in it, none was bad. |
Actually, I think the popes have been much less "colorful" after the counter-reformation begun, so it's much older than the 20th century.
I think the reason why the popes behaved like hell during the pre-Luther era is because they had nothing to fear (they were at the helm of a significant country, and they didn't have to fear their flock converting to a non-papist religion). AND, the election process was completely unaccountable to the wishes of the believers, but also to the wishes of basic clergy. It remains so today: the Pope chooses the cardinals, the cardinals choose the next pope. Should a corrupt pope manage to get corrupt cardinals, you can have a very long string of adepts of group sex, or of pedophile popes.
I have no opinion whether the Church's decision-process should be open to all believers (Laymen included), but I think it would only benefit from associating all its priests, because the basic priests are the one in close contact with the believers and their reality, as well as they are people of genuine faith.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Laity most often hasn't even read Bible or catechism, and in several European states it acts as if God did not exist.
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Well, if they haven't read the cathecism how did they get confirmed? In most of the "mainstream" protestant churches almost all of the laity have read at least one book of the gospels and some portions of the OT. quote:
Because no-one cares about elections of pastors or parish priests.
Also, in result protestant churches do just what the flock wants. It is taught by it instead of teaching it.
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You don't know what you're talking about. This has never been true at any church I attended.
quote:
Mostly because of political pressure on the clergy.
Of the ones of XX century, after the church got free from foreign interventions in it, none was bad.
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Neverthelees it is patently obvious that the current system of Papal selection can have some undesireable results. Term limitation lessens this effect. quote:
yawn
If You read post I was replying to, You'd know that the author of it hesitates about the number of catholics worldwide. I wanted to precise it. |
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Perhaps I am using the wrong word. I mean that you're listing a bunch of speculation that could explain the actual evidence, and then calling it evidence. |
Um, I did nothing of the kind. I was just citing what is the current consensus opinion of historians
quote:
That Abraham came from a culture that had a record of the event has nothing to do with the veracity of the Hebrew account of it. |
True. The account could have been totally made up. I'm not sure why you're making this point, as if I stated that the Flood was entirely not true.
quote:
That the concept has a heritage in the area is evident, though even that doesn't mean that the idea was necessarily directly taken. An historical event of sufficient magnitude would be known in many places, and while the details seem absurd, that's a double-edged sword. I don't remember the exact details of the Sumerian legends, as it's been a while, but assuming it bears some serious similarities to the biblical version that's some weird stuff to just make up.
Specifically, the animals. Why on earth would a man of those times bother preserving EVERY animal known? This was decidedly pre-Greenpeace, the animals that couldn't be eaten or otherwise used would not have had innate value. |
The earlier myths are that a king sailed down the flooded Euphrates on a giant barge that held his own househould, including all of his animals. That's what is presumed to be the origin of Noah.
http://mcclungmuseum.utk.edu/specex/ur/ur-flood.htm
"The epic of Atrahasis, written in Akkadian, can be dated by colophon (scribal identification) to the reign of Hammurabi's great grandson, Ammi-saduga (1646-1626 BC), and it continued to be copied into the first millennium. In the epic, Enlil, the senior deity of the pantheon, plots to reduce the number of humans, whose noisy vitality was such that Enlil could not sleep. When his plans to wipe out the human race using various plagues are thwarted, Enlil decides on a flood. Enki, the god of fresh water, known for wisdom, as he had in the case of the plagues, betrays Enlil's plan to Atrahasis, the king. Atrahasis, his family, and his possessions, as well as animals and birds, ride out the flood that lasted seven days and seven nights in a reed boat coated with bitumen. On disembarking, Atrahasis makes offerings. The mother goddess condemned the chief gods Anu and Enlil for the destruction and tried to exclude them from the offerings. Enlil is furious when he discovered that even a few humans had survived and he blamed Enki. Enlil eventually gave way and permitted the human race to continue, but he required that Enki and the mother goddess organize them better, probably to spare him the noise."
It's important to note that Enlil is the Sumerian god from which Jehovah was derived.
quote:
I'm not saying the Flood account in the Bible is literally true; like I said, I'm not fundamentalist. I view the whole story as figurative on some level. But I don't see why you dismiss the entire story with contempt precisely because it seems to be ultimately based on a real event and is mentioned by other sources. |
What the hell are you on about? I said--several times--that the story was based on a true event. I don't see how I can be any plainer about it. You're directing unfounded outrage at a strawman. "Highly fictionalized" means the details are not necessarily true, which you yourself concede. So what's the argument here?
quote:
The life of George Washington is "mythologized" after roughly two centuries have passed. That doesn't mean the man never existed. |
So who am I asserting never existed again? Or what?
quote:
An event that occured around the dawn of civilization will be "mythologized" by the intervening years no matter who tells the story. Especially when we only know it from the written records of two extinct civilizations. |
Isn't that my point? Dear lord, what are you arguing about?
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Joseph
My guess is Mexico. I would suppect that about 95% of the Pop. is Catholic.
In the US 25% of 280 Million = 70 Million or so. CNN said one of every 4 American are Catholic. |
I think it's Brazil.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Some did not. And to get confirmation, You in general have to attend some classes and write something about a chosen saint, no more. |
That's not the process Ben has described going through. He's been required to do much more than that. Maybe things are different in Poland? quote:
Is there anything that the protestant church opposes its laity in?
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First of all there is certainly more than one protestant church so right away your statement simplyu makes no sense. One example I can think of is female priests. In the Episcopal church the idea of allowing the ordination of women originated with the clergy. There were certainly a number of parishes opposed to the idea, but in the end the majority came to accept the idea. In most of the churches I've attended the priest generally leads. quote:
Any form of selection can have undesirable results, especially so-called democratic ones. |
Especially? Do you favor hereditary succession, trial by combat, or what?
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
ben converted. |
So you're saying that all the classes he had to take to prepare are only required in order for converts to take communion and that those born into the Roman Catholic Church don't have to take the classes? So it's sort of like naturalization?
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19-04-2005 05:25
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