06-04-2005 00:42									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Wezil "common sense" Does not seem to support the position you hold but that's okay. I don't engage in arguments of faith b/c they tend to be silly.

So believing that people won't commit murder, rape, or other capital crimes out of fear of being executed isn't common sense to you? Wow, you must have some really stange definitions.

	06-04-2005 00:47									#62
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

*sigh*

See my first post - not in your country. The death penalty in the USA is neither swift nor sure, hence not a deterent.

	06-04-2005 01:04									#63
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Swift Public Executions

	06-04-2005 01:07									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: DBTS asked for it, so I gave it to him.

i have to work tomorrow so can read it then......give me some time...

	06-04-2005 01:09									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: So believing that people won't commit murder, rape, or other capital crimes out of fear of being executed isn't common sense to you? Wow, you must have some really stange definitions.

that would mean people think rationally when commiting or contiplation murder...and that is something i find hard to believe

	06-04-2005 01:11									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Wezil *sigh* See my first post - not in your country. The death penalty in the USA is neither swift nor sure, hence not a deterent.

Yes, I heard you make that unsupported claim. Like Imran said there are tons of studies and it just depends which ones you find creditable.

	06-04-2005 01:11									#67
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword [/q] that would mean people think rationally when commiting or contiplation murder...and that is something i find hard to believe

Many, many people do.

	06-04-2005 01:30									#68
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword quote: DBTS asked for it, so I gave it to him. i have to work tomorrow so can read it then......give me some time...

No prob. Like I said, I had posted those in a previous thread, so the only work I had to do today was cut and paste.

	06-04-2005 01:33									#69
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin But if you included them then the US wouldn't look so bad so we can't allow that to happen.

Doesn't the US look bad anyway?! I mean hey, look at the cars you make.


Spec.

	06-04-2005 01:51									#70
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin everyone else still understands the deterence value of capital punishment.

That's why the US (and particularly Texas) has the lowest crime rate in the industrialized world, right?

	06-04-2005 01:54									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So basically your map confirmed exactly what I said! Europe and Latin America outlawed it (along with a few tag alongs like Australia, Canada, and South Africa) while just about everyone else still allows it. Why not just say "Yes, you're right Oerdin" rather then playing silly numbers games?

I count some dozens of countries outside Europe and America on that map that have outlawed or don't practice it.

But far more interesting would be to observe if there's a correlation between democracy and no death penalty and between dictatorship and death penalty.

	06-04-2005 03:37									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Does anyone know what types of crimes the Chinese are executing criminals for? Are they being executed only for murder or are there other crimes for which the Chinese give the death penalty?

	06-04-2005 07:14									#73
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Wezil "common sense" Does not seem to support the position you hold but that's okay. I don't engage in arguments of faith b/c they tend to be silly.

Yeah. Faith based arguments can be silly.

Take for instance the position that the DP is never appropriate, and then apply that to a small time hood like, say, Clifford Olsen.

I'm sure that there must be some doubt that he killed at least one of the children he was never convicted of killing because the cops couldn't pin on him more than the 49 or so he admitted to killing.

There must be a chance that he will someday breathe free air again, and that he will be a useful member of society who will pay taxes or make some other more meaningful contribution, like say, write a how to on being a serial child killer.

I agree. Faith based arguments are silly, because nobody could ever make a rational case for why a dirt bag like Clifford Olsen is still alive.

	06-04-2005 07:30									#74
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Does anyone know what types of crimes the Chinese are executing criminals for? Are they being executed only for murder or are there other crimes for which the Chinese give the death penalty?

There are a wide range of capital crimes in China, including for white collar crime like embezzlement and corruption.

	06-04-2005 09:44									#75
	Re: Re: China, Iran, Vietnam totally pwn the US Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski If they want to stay on top they are going to have to kill people like this........

Damn straight.

And the woman, and the woman's other husband while they are at it.

	06-04-2005 09:47									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Are they being executed only for murder or are there other crimes for which the Chinese give the death penalty?

Drug related (manufacturing, trafficking, etc.), counterfeiting the RMB (possibly other important official documents), attempting to overthrow the state or any such conspiracies

	06-04-2005 10:07									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There are reports violating quarantine is being added re: SARs.

	06-04-2005 10:12									#78
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Drug related (manufacturing, trafficking, etc.), counterfeiting the RMB (possibly other important official documents), attempting to overthrow the state or any such conspiracies

That and trying to escape the horrors of North Korea.

	06-04-2005 10:26									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I thought they just tossed them back.

	06-04-2005 10:43									#80
	Suffering from ads?

About 2 1/2 years ago, I was passing through Kwala Lampur. The headline in the paper was "1,000 Drug Dealers Executed." Oh Toto, I don't think we're in California anymore!

	06-04-2005 10:46									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah. Faith based arguments can be silly. Take for instance the position that the DP is never appropriate, and then apply that to a small time hood like, say, Clifford Olsen. I'm sure that there must be some doubt that he killed at least one of the children he was never convicted of killing because the cops couldn't pin on him more than the 49 or so he admitted to killing. There must be a chance that he will someday breathe free air again, and that he will be a useful member of society who will pay taxes or make some other more meaningful contribution, like say, write a how to on being a serial child killer. I agree. Faith based arguments are silly, because nobody could ever make a rational case for why a dirt bag like Clifford Olsen is still alive.

This strikes at the heart of my long posts. Some people, by their own actions, lose their right to live in a society and to consume any of that society's resources. In these cases, I believe that it is immoral for a state to allow these people to live. This Clifford Olsen guy seems to be one such individual. How is is right that he gets to eat govt. food and live in state shelters while anyone goes hungry? How is it fair that, after all of his unspeakable crimes, he still gets to interact with the society that he so greviously wronged? This is why I could never support the abolishment of the death penalty. If you care to learn more about my justifications for this position, read those long posts.

	06-04-2005 10:48									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I thought they just tossed them back.

Exactly

	06-04-2005 11:36									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Wycoff This strikes at the heart of my long posts. Some people, by their own actions, lose their right to live in a society and to consume any of that society's resources.

Who is to make such a judgement and based on what could such a judgement be made?

	06-04-2005 11:58									#84
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What I've noticed looking at this thread is that no one has mentioned that while China executed 3,400 people and the US only about 60, the US still has about 3,400 sentenced to death as of January 1, 2005. The only thing preventing the US from having a ranking that rivals China's is the speed at which we execute.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/docu...0256F850047C02F

	06-04-2005 12:27									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword it is 'funny' to see that the most powerfull and rich country in the world and the weakest and poorest countries do have something in common.

Disdain for Europe?

	06-04-2005 12:29									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Who is to make such a judgement and based on what could such a judgement be made?

A judge and jury based upon democratic decided laws which are bound by the rights enumerated in the Constitution? Just a guess...

	06-04-2005 13:37									#87
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Wycoff This strikes at the heart of my long posts. Some people, by their own actions, lose their right to live in a society and to consume any of that society's resources. In these cases, I believe that it is immoral for a state to allow these people to live. This Clifford Olsen guy seems to be one such individual. How is is right that he gets to eat govt. food and live in state shelters while anyone goes hungry? How is it fair that, after all of his unspeakable crimes, he still gets to interact with the society that he so greviously wronged? This is why I could never support the abolishment of the death penalty. If you care to learn more about my justifications for this position, read those long posts.

One does not fight barbarism with state sponsored barbarism.

But the main argument against the death penalty is all the innocent men and women who have executed for crimes they did not commit. One innocent death is too many.

	06-04-2005 13:51									#88
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Five countries abolished the death penalty for all crimes in 2004 - Bhutan, Greece, Samoa, Senegal and Turkey. - quitters!

are you sure about Greece? anyway, such a decision didnt make it to the local news, most probably cause noone hadnt been executed for the last 40-50 years....

then again i dont think we ever had any serial killers...

	06-04-2005 13:59									#89
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin An understanding that the death penality saves lives by acting as a deterent?

Given the figures I quoted for 18th Century Great Britain you'd expect there to be a huge downturn in murders or crimes for which the death penalty was the punishment.


There wasn't- there was an increase. Notice how the fear of the death penalty stopped Jack The Ripper in his tracks. Not.


In point of fact, several surveys and investigations into murders committed after a state or country has abolished the death penalty have shown a decline in the number of murders committed.

Your logic says that if a murderer is to be hanged for one death, he or she may as well commit several, although that is presuming murderers act logically in the normal sense of the word.

And of course it begs the question- when the state kills the wrong person (as states have done in the past) who is then punished for that judicial murder ? I confess I have never understood the supposed rationale behind killing one person in order to deter others from killing- it simply says the state reserves the right to do what it tells you not to do.

	06-04-2005 14:08									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One does not fight barbarism with state sponsored barbarism. But the main argument against the death penalty is all the innocent men and women who have executed for crimes they did not commit. One innocent death is too many.

And that argument is meaningless as a reason that an admitted multiple murderer caught dead to rights should be allowed to continue breathing.

By all means, set the bar high. I agree fully. Make the onus on the state to take a life incredibly high. Make it so that the only people who could be executed have to be convicted of particularly heineous crimes and that not even many unreasonable doubts remain about guilt.

Clifford Olsen would have met the all of those criteria, and one more.

The parents and families of victims of such great crimes are entitled to vengeance as far as I am concerned. Let the vengeance be 'civilised' and at the hands of the state, not the general population of some federal prison. Of course, Clifford Olsen is so bad a case that they never will let him anywhere near the GP. He'd be dead and stripped of flesh to the bone within about 5 minutes.