06-04-2005 14:14									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So believing that people won't commit murder, rape, or other capital crimes out of fear of being executed isn't common sense to you? Wow, you must have some really stange definitions.

Of course it wouldn't stop them. People don't think they are going to get caught. When you could get executed in Britain for stealing it didn't stop people stealing.

The fact it clearly doesn't stop crime and never has is evidence enough that it's not a deterrent.

	06-04-2005 14:17									#92
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So, it's impossible that some people in some situations think 'if I get caught, I'll be killed' and defer the crime?

	06-04-2005 14:30									#93
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It's not impossible I guess but I just can't imagine the thought process that would lead to that. Why would that be any more of a deterrent to "if I get caught I'll spend the rest of my life in jail"? Are they thinking "I'm going to break into this random house and stab and rape this entire family to death, spending the rest of my life behind bars wouldn't be too bad... if we had the death penalty I'd just go home and watch TV" it just seems ludicrous.

	06-04-2005 14:31									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin A judge and jury based upon democratic decided laws which are bound by the rights enumerated in the Constitution? Just a guess...

If humans have rights, the right to life is necessarily the most fundamental. If your constitution cannot even guarantee this, what good is it?

	06-04-2005 14:39									#95
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"If humans have rights, the right to life is necessarily the most fundamental. "

Why? Philosophical proof of that please.

I don't favour the death penalty for various reasons but mainly due to the dangers of executing the wrong people.

	06-04-2005 16:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG then again i dont think we ever had any serial killers...

See America? It is possible - the Greeks must be doing something right

	06-04-2005 16:24									#97
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, it's impossible that some people in some situations think 'if I get caught, I'll be killed' and defer the crime?

It's possible, but the overwhelming evidence in teh US is that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent in capital crimes; states that legalize the death penaly do not see their murder rates go down, nor do states that outlaw it see their rates go up.

The probable reason is that thinking the thought you speculate on would be a rational act, and most murders are actually irrational acts, of either the heat-of-the-moment or sociopathic varieties.

	06-04-2005 17:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Drug related (manufacturing, trafficking, etc.), counterfeiting the RMB (possibly other important official documents), attempting to overthrow the state or any such conspiracies

And this.

	06-04-2005 17:23									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Who is to make such a judgement and based on what could such a judgement be made?

The Party, of course.

	06-04-2005 18:38									#100
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nye, I think you're looking at it from a different perspective than what was being discussed. I actually agree with you (I think) about the DP - I don't have a problem with it for people like Clifford Olsen. But that doesn't really speak to the deterrence value of having the DP in the first place.

	06-04-2005 18:44									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Who is to make such a judgement and based on what could such a judgement be made?

Society as a whole does, or rather society as effectuated by it's duly elected officials. That's the way the punishments for every crime are determined.

	06-04-2005 18:45									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One does not fight barbarism with state sponsored barbarism.

Execution is not barbarism.

	06-04-2005 18:52									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If humans have rights, the right to life is necessarily the most fundamental. If your constitution cannot even guarantee this, what good is it?

You still have a right to life in a DP system. The right is simply a qualified right.

	07-04-2005 07:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH "If humans have rights, the right to life is necessarily the most fundamental. " Why? Philosophical proof of that please.

It's the basic assumption

All other human rights are based on somebody being human. That is, having the right sort of genes and alive.

	07-04-2005 07:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff You still have a right to life in a DP system. The right is simply a qualified right.

That's dangerous, because somebody gets to decide who's qualified and who's not. Furthermore, the "qualifications" can change, maybe even arbitrarily.

	07-04-2005 07:31									#106
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I suppose the qualified right to freedom of movement is dangerous, too, isn't it UR?

	07-04-2005 07:46									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I suppose the qualified right to freedom of movement is dangerous, too, isn't it UR?

Exactly. I can't think of a right that isn't qualified in some way. There have historically been arbitrary, capricious qualifications to every right, but there have also been reasonable qualifications (like not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater is a reasonable qualification on the right of free speech). Right to life is very important, but it's not utterly sacrosanct and inviolable. For instance, it's legally acceptable in the US to use lethal force against someone if they are trying to rape you. As I've outlined, I see that there are some actions that people can take that revokes their right to life.

	07-04-2005 08:34									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Is there any reason why murder is actually immoral?

Granted that I'm a bit of a nihilist, I'd say that no, there is no external force that ultimately dictates in an absolute way that murdering another is wrong.


However, there are very many practical reasons why, within the confines of human society, we have decided that murder is immoral and wrong. In effect, it's as close to being absolutely immoral as anything gets.

	07-04-2005 08:39									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Is there any reason why murder is actually immoral?

Net detriment to utility?

	07-04-2005 09:46									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One innocent death is too many.

	07-04-2005 10:26									#111
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Because we have guns and you don't?

	07-04-2005 10:31									#112
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Because it means only those that obey our rules survive

	07-04-2005 10:45									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki nye, I think you're looking at it from a different perspective than what was being discussed. I actually agree with you (I think) about the DP - I don't have a problem with it for people like Clifford Olsen. But that doesn't really speak to the deterrence value of having the DP in the first place.

I agree, mostly, however isn't the bigger issue whether the DP can be justified in many, some, few, or no cases?

People who think it would be good for run of the mill cases cling to deterence when 'statistics' say otherwise.

People who favour abolition cling to cases of innocence when there are clear cases of no possibility of that state.

Both are arguing based on imperfect sets of facts, ie faith.

	08-04-2005 08:29									#114
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I find the whole "death penalty deters crime" argument to be utter bollocks and quite disproved by most empirical evidence.

Personally I am in favor of the DP but for other reasons: that some crimes are so hineous, done by people who are so messed up mentally that they are a burden to the state and do not deserve to be alive. By these I mean rapists, kidnappers, serial killers and particular pre-determined murderers.

I would not expect it to deter more such crimes though. I merely stand by it for the "eye for an eye" principle.

	08-04-2005 08:58									#115
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I've always thought the death penalty makes crims more desperate, leads to more murder.

	08-04-2005 09:02									#116
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Funny I always thought life imprisonment lead to the same. Afterall once sentenced to life whats the worst that can happen to you? More life sentences.

Once immunized by the life sentence that pretty much means liscense to kill the poor bastard that looks cross ways at you in the pen.

	08-04-2005 14:27									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Funny I always thought life imprisonment lead to the same. Afterall once sentenced to life whats the worst that can happen to you? More life sentences. Once immunized by the life sentence that pretty much means liscense to kill the poor bastard that looks cross ways at you in the pen.

Not if the life sentence works like here in Germany.
Here Life sentence doesn´t necessary leads to the person imprisoned for his whole remaining lifetime.
Normally even if a delinquent is imprisoned for life, it means that after 15 years there is a revision where it will be examined, if his behavior in prison leads to a positive social prognosis and his time of imprisonment can be considerably shortened.
After this date, revisions can take place quite regularly (every couple of years).
Only if he is sentenced to "lifelong with a very grave guilt" (for example because he murdered someone in a very cruelsome way) this revision can be suspended.
Even in these cases a revision could take place, but AFAIK there is no fix date, just the rule that the first revision can take place no earlier than after 18 years of imprisonment.

So let me see, lets assume you killed someone, for example you wanted to rob a bank and thereby killed a security guard who drew a weapon.
At which instance would you be more inclined to panic and kill all the other witnesses within the bank (instead of just taking the money and fleeing)?
If you knew you could be sentenced to death, or if you knew that the worst thing that could happen to you would be a sentence for life (and you had a certain chance to come out of prison, even if it would take 2 decades)?

	08-04-2005 16:20									#118
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I like to see my murderers rot in jail

	08-04-2005 16:59									#119
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Planning ahead?

	08-04-2005 17:13									#120
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I agree, mostly, however isn't the bigger issue whether the DP can be justified in many, some, few, or no cases? People who think it would be good for run of the mill cases cling to deterence when 'statistics' say otherwise. People who favour abolition cling to cases of innocence when there are clear cases of no possibility of that state. Both are arguing based on imperfect sets of facts, ie faith.

Actually, I argue against the death penalty based on the fact that society has other means to protect itself. If you have the ability to put somebody in a cage for the rest of their life, then killing them is wrong. Lethal force is to be used, both by individuals and society at large, as a last resort.