07-05-2005 00:47									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Do you actually think that Liverpool is one of the two best teams in Europe this year? They played well in the tourney, but Chelsea finished 30+ points above them in the Premiership!

I never said the current CL setup is perfect to out the best team.

quote: You can't compare Champions from one country to those of another unless they play against each other,

Yes you can, the coefficients themselves are based on past success of that leagues teams in europe. And by that I meant the champions of Latvia and say Liverpool.

	07-05-2005 03:34									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, the deluded fan. Give it up... they won't do it... no way, no how.

two questions for you Imran...

1) Are you a betting man?
and
2) Have you got a Paypal account?

Ive got $20 that says if Liverpool win the CL this year, they will be in it next year whether they finish fouth or not?

Your analogy with American sports doesn't hold water either, the CL is not the same as the play-offs, it's a separate competition from the national leagues, the play-offs are part of the American national league seaso. Most of your leagues have no relegation or qualifying criteria at all.

	07-05-2005 09:49									#453
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quote: Yes you can, the coefficients themselves are based on past success of that leagues teams in europe.

So coefficients based on past success of league teams in Europe can accurately predict how a Champion will do this year in the CL!! Hehehe.

How high was the Portugese league rated last year?

They are the best way to attempt to rate leagues, but they can't tell you how Champions will do against each other in the current year.

quote: two questions for you Imran... 1) Are you a betting man? and 2) Have you got a Paypal account? Ive got $20 that says if Liverpool win the CL this year, they will be in it next year whether they finish fouth or not?

I don't have Paypal, but I can place a bet down. $20 is fine. I can always set up a Paypal account for the money... does a Paypal account cost money to set up?

If Liverpool win the CL and finish less than 4th, I bet they won't go to the CL next year. Of course both have to happen for the bet to be on.

Or, if you want to do an avatar bet, I can do that as well.

Or both .

	07-05-2005 10:06									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Yes you can, the coefficients themselves are based on past success of that leagues teams in europe. So coefficients based on past success of league teams in Europe can accurately predict how a Champion will do this year in the CL!! Hehehe. They are the best way to attempt to rate leagues, but they can't tell you how Champions will do against each other in the current year.

They predict better than you apparently, not all champions are equal you know.

What you are saying is we cant predict how the Latvian champions would fare in the CL compared to Chelsea, until they play each other. Yes theyre both champions, but theres a huge gap between the Premiership and whatever the top league in Latvia is.

	07-05-2005 10:43									#455
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quote: What you are saying is we cant predict how the Latvian champions would fare in the CL compared to Chelsea, until they play each other. Yes theyre both champions, but theres a huge gap between the Premiership and whatever the top league in Latvia is.

Perhaps so, but the Latvian Champions can beat Chelsea, can they not? You can't be totally sure unless you have them face off. You can guess, but there have been some monument upsets the past.

Btw, again, how highly was the Portugese league rated last year?

	07-05-2005 10:48									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or both .

Both it is then, Paypal is free to set up BTW

	07-05-2005 11:12									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What you are saying is we cant predict how the Latvian champions would fare in the CL compared to Chelsea, until they play each other. Yes theyre both champions, but theres a huge gap between the Premiership and whatever the top league in Latvia is. Perhaps so, but the Latvian Champions can beat Chelsea, can they not? You can't be totally sure unless you have them face off. You can guess, but there have been some monument upsets the past. Btw, again, how highly was the Portugese league rated last year?

I wonder how well Portugese teams did before Porto won the CL, and how well theyll do in next 10 years compared to the big four or five leagues.

Its for the Latvian champions to prove, as Porto have, by showing they have the quality to hold it with the rest of Europes champions. But if they dont do it consistantly theyre rating will fall again, which is fair. They or any team from the Latvian top league have hardly set the european footballing world alight recently, thats why they only have one qualifier, so why should we assume they can do anything more and give them an easier time.

	07-05-2005 11:42									#458
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quote: Its for the Latvian champions to prove, as Porto have, by showing they have the quality to hold it with the rest of Europes champions.

Yet, if they are deemed a 'crap' squad and thus another team from a BIG league can take their place then how are they supposed to prove it to you? What if Milan in 2003 didn't finish in their Top 4 and because they won the CL, UEFA decided to give them the spot in place of Porto because Portugal was decided to be a crap league (forget that they get two spots for a second)?

Remember, there have been some interesting champions of the Champions League (Steaua Bucuresti in '86 comes to mind as does Red Star Belgrade in '91). You give those other countries a chance because they could surprise you.

In a European CHAMPIONS League, I think the first thing to do is to secure that every league's champion gets in. Then you worry about the non-champion qualifiers.

	07-05-2005 11:59									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Its for the Latvian champions to prove, as Porto have, by showing they have the quality to hold it with the rest of Europes champions. Yet, if they are deemed a 'crap' squad and thus another team from a BIG league can take their place then how are they supposed to prove it to you?

How about qualify for a start?

	07-05-2005 12:00									#460
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Being Champions of their league when it is named the European CHAMPIONS League isn't good enough for you? If it isn't, I think they need a new name for the competition then.

	07-05-2005 12:03									#461
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They do get into the CL, but they cant even get past the first stage. What more of a chance do they need?

	07-05-2005 12:05									#462
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What exactly are you talking about? If you are happy with them getting into the first stage why complain that they are there?

	07-05-2005 12:09									#463
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Ive been complaining about giving them any easier chance, eg a full knockout system.

	07-05-2005 13:42									#464
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If they win on a home and home (where only the Champions of leagues face off against each other), doesn't that prove they belong there? I mean would you favor the FA Cup being a round robin? I think the best part about tourney's like that is the chance at an upset.

	07-05-2005 13:59									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If they win on a home and home (where only the Champions of leagues face off against each other), doesn't that prove they belong there?

?

quote: I mean would you favor the FA Cup being a round robin? I think the best part about tourney's like that is the chance at an upset.

Of course thats the great thing with the FA cup, the best league team in the country isnt necessarily the best cup team, which is why a purely knockout tournament wont out the best team in europe.

	07-05-2005 14:20									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Indeed... and it is a 'European' Cup. We want all of Europe to participate, and engaging in such a competition may make those 'crap' countries that much better with all the experience on the continent.

What I meant with crap teams, are teams that excell in dropping down dead and wasting time.

I think it's great when smaller teams goes through, I would have loved to see both PSV and AZ to make it to the final.

	07-05-2005 14:25									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus * snip * they only went out on away goals scored in extra time, I don't think that's a fair rule either: Sporting got 30 minutes more than AZ in which their away goals counted double. Away goals in extra time IMO should never be counted double... * snip *

I never liked that rule either, the problem is that it works and that I can't think of a alternative solution.

At one point though, in Belgium that scored away goal during extra time didn't count double. I remember a team loosing when they thought they were entitled to penalties, the look on their faces, when the referee ended the match was absolutely priceless.

	07-05-2005 15:02									#468
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Disclaimer: the following post is not about the match AZ lost but about the rule in general. AZ knew and accepted the rules, so that they lost is their own fault. They just shouldn't have given away a goal in the last 30 seconds of a half... TWICE! But I've been annoyed by this rule several times this season, both with clubs I cared about and with ones I didn't.

The thing is, if after 180 minutes of football things are still exactly equal, then there isn't much between the two teams and giving one of the teams a 100% bonus on every goal scored is waaayyy too much of a bonus. I mean, then the away team only needs to score once to win the game: how often in the history of football has a team scored more than once in extra time? After 90 minutes the players are often exhausted already, scoring once is hard enough.

In many cases the home advantage is overrated anyway, so just not counting all goals equal in extra time would work fine. More time in front of a home crowd is less of a bonus than counting goals double anyway. Especially for international football this would probably work fine.

Clubs can sometimes have very fanatical followings and claustrophoobic stadiums though, in that case it does indeed give the home team an unfair advantage. But if you wanted to compensate for that, I would get rid of extra time altogether -- there's just no way you can balance it fairly. Either go to penalties directly or have a rematch on neutral ground...

	07-05-2005 15:18									#469
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but..but extra times are fun!!! Ffootball becomes more and more fun as the players get tired and tactics get thrown out of the window.

The rematch isn't going to work either, too much logistical hassle and they play enough games as it is (not to mention that playing in an empty stadium isn't much fun either).

I agree with you on priciple though and wouldn't mind some other rule either.
Doing away with the goal not counting double in extra time sounds like a good option.

	07-05-2005 15:31									#470
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quote: Originally posted by alva but..but extra times are fun!!! Ffootball becomes more and more fun as the players get tired and tactics get thrown out of the window.

You could have extra time in the rematch if needed... Though just having extra time but not counting goals double would be my preferred option whenever possible.

quote: The rematch isn't going to work either, too much logistical hassle and they play enough games as it is (not to mention that playing in an empty stadium isn't much fun either).

Logistics can't be much of an issue: they do it several times a season already, when bad weather, airport strikes, etc make it impossible to play at match at the last moment. IIRC Dutch teams have had matches moved back a week twice this season alone. As for teams playing enough matches as it is, it's in their own hands how many extra matches they'd have to play...

And noone said the stadium had to be empty, just on neutral grounds. Seats can be divided equally between the teams...

	07-05-2005 16:48									#471
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quote: And noone said the stadium had to be empty, just on neutral grounds. Seats can be divided equally between the teams...

Great when bigger teams are involved but really, how many italians would go to a stadium to watch AZ versus some Polish team? They hardly go watch CL games as it is (at least before the quarter final).

What I meant with logistics, is that the stadium has to be free and certain teams would/could have to travel quite a distance just to play yet another game. Also, when are you going to play these games, the English calender for example, is pretty much filled up and leaves little room for rescheduling.

	08-05-2005 10:51									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Of course thats the great thing with the FA cup, the best league team in the country isnt necessarily the best cup team, which is why a purely knockout tournament wont out the best team in europe.

Frankly, neither will a round robin/knockout. If you want to find out the best time in Europe, have them play a European league. That won't happen, so just enjoy a fun competition.

	08-05-2005 13:06									#473
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CL should go to best of three, no ties possible.

	08-05-2005 14:53									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Frankly, neither will a round robin/knockout. If you want to find out the best time in Europe, have them play a European league. That won't happen, so just enjoy a fun competition.

The system now isnt perfect, but its a damn sight better than pure knockout to help inconsistant teams.

	08-05-2005 16:06									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Do you actually think that Liverpool is one of the two best teams in Europe this year? They played well in the tourney, but Chelsea finished 30+ points above them in the Premiership!

OTOH, Liverpool would have beaten Chelsea in the FA Cup if Gerard didn't mess up.

Having a bigger team than everybody else explains why Chelsea has been doing better than every other Premier League team.

	10-05-2005 00:49									#476
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Imran, get your money ready, the UEFA president has just said that if Liverpool in the CL and the FA ask for an extra place then UEFA will give it to them!!

You'd better hope Milan do you a favour!!

I it when I'm right!

	10-05-2005 00:54									#477
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Ah but, will the FA ask for it??

So another team will get dropped?

	10-05-2005 01:00									#478
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quote: Originally posted by alva Ah but, will the FA ask for it?? So another team will get dropped?

No, it's for a fifth place. Bottom line: If we win it, we're in it next year (and Imran owes me $20 and gets to have a "don't f*ck with the Redman" avatar)

	10-05-2005 01:06									#479
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good lord, two lots of scousers set loose on europe, imagine if they draw inter and ac millian, there won't be a hubcap left in the city!

	10-05-2005 01:12									#480
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And we get to keep the trophy 'cos we've won it 5 times!!!!