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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:13
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And how many of those players who play in Europe started their careers or improved their careers in the MLS? Beasley and Donovan became the players they are in the MLS. Bocanegra started in the MLS, etc, etc. |
who cares where they sstart their career? they all realized that the MLS will not make them better players, and thats why they left. its because the level of play abroad is a million times better.
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Only barely more aware of the game. If you think the Women's World Cup, World Cup '94, and US games on ESPN has caused some groundswell of soccer support, then you are being delusion.
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not at all. a significant amount of people are playing and watching soccer more now then 10 years ago.
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Also because they play attack, attack, attack. Italy confirms their worst fears about soccer, the 0-0 or 1-0 games which are the soccer hater's stereotype of the game. |
stereotypes are stereotypes, and they wont change because someone watches the epl. a 2 -1 score is still a boring game for them, lets be serious. anything less then 3 goals for one team is 'boring and low scoring' their strategy has nothing to do with people tuning in - people arnt even aware many times that there are different styles of play.
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Oh please. One reason they go is the higher level of play, but kickball? If that was the reason, then why don't they go to play in the Guatemalan or Honduras leagues, or are those kickball as well? |
yep, those leagues are also kickball, but with a twist: its one on one dribbling for 80 minutes, and no passing at all.
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Like I said, the NASL tried that. They paid a TON for European players and ended up folding because the were losing money hand over foot. Europeans players will NOT come to the MLS until they are at the end of their career (Djorkaeff) or if they are paid some insane sum of money (Pele and Beckenbauer in the old NASL). |
like i said, more people are aware now then then.
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I don't see Wayne Rooney saying he wants to come to the US.
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wayne rooney doesnt come here cuz the MLS sucks, and he would be regressing and not going forward. they could pay him millions and he still wouldnt come here because its below his level - its kickball.
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You have to get fans first, so you can start paying players more, which will lead to the ability to get better players in Europe. |
you dont get fans when you play garbage soccer. you only get fans when your product is a quality product. you need to invest in high end inputs if you want people to buy it. you expect people to settle for less, to be grabbed by shitty soccer. that wont happen.
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The MLS is just as good as the Guatamalan or Honduran leagues. |
you're going to compare a league in a country of 300 million, to leagues in 3rd world countries with a few million people max? if we are only on par with these guys, then by your own admission, the mls blows.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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who cares where they sstart their career? they all realized that the MLS will not make them better players, and thats why they left. its because the level of play abroad is a million times better. |
The MLS developed them and set them up to take advantage of the oppertunities of the top leagues. The MLS DID make them better players than if it had never existed. Without the MLS, plenty of the players in Europe wouldn't have gotten the proper development. Like a lot of leagues in the new world, it's become a decent feeder.
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not at all. a significant amount of people are playing and watching soccer more now then 10 years ago. |
Not really. 10 years ago soccer was still the #1 participatory sport (youth, especially) and had been throughout the 80s. Those kids didn't stick with the game and they aren't sticking with it too much today either. I'd say it is far less than 'significant'. People who had an interest in soccer can now watch it on Fox Soccer Channel and Gol TV, but I don't see that many new fans.
Maybe you just never knew that there was a small group of soccer fans that existed 10 years ago, what with no real internet and hardly any digital TV channels. Though, I guarentee you, it is small. If it wasn't for the internet, people would have no idea that there was this small group of Americans who follow the game. Hell, I'd bet you'd have a very hard time getting 10% of Americans to tell you the name of a men's soccer player not named David Beckham.
Futhermore there are vastly more people that hate soccer than like it in the US. Just try to post a thread about 'football' and talk about soccer. Sava will be there quicker than you can say 'offsides' posting 5-10 pictures of Chicago Bears saying this is "real football" and you'll have plenty of other Americans slagging off soccer as well. And this is a board of the middle class yuppies where wactching soccer is most popular demographic-wise in the US.
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stereotypes are stereotypes, and they wont change because someone watches the epl. |
It will if they watch an exciting, thrilling, attacking match. I think you could change plenty of stereotypes by getting a person to watch an English match as opposed to an Italian match.
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yep, those leagues are also kickball, but with a twist: its one on one dribbling for 80 minutes, and no passing at all. |
... speaking of stereotypes...
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wayne rooney doesnt come here cuz the MLS sucks, and he would be regressing and not going forward. they could pay him millions and he still wouldnt come here because its below his level - its kickball. |
You offer him more than he could make in Europe, as well as offering other Euro players similar deals, and he'd come. A lot of it is money. You can't entice good players from Europe by offering them $500,000 a year, when they are used to $5, 10, etc million per year.
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you dont get fans when you play garbage soccer. you only get fans when your product is a quality product. |
You get fans when the game is entertaining. Americans think soccer is boring and nothing happens. You could plop the entire Italian Serie A in the US and it'd fail, because it'd only confirm the worst fears of the soccerphobe.
And how else do you recommend getting quality soccer except by gradually, year by year, trying to create quality young American players (which isn't a one year process, mind)? Until that time you have to engage the masses... play attacking.
Otherwise, in your grand scheme, you get boring soccer which also happens to be ugly, because the talent just isn't there in the MLS to play football on the level of Italy or Spain. It just isn't.
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you're going to compare a league in a country of 300 million, to leagues in 3rd world countries with a few million people max? if we are only on par with these guys, then by your own admission, the mls blows. |
They have also had a professional soccer league for waaaay longer than the US has. And the amount of soccer fans in the US (in raw numbers) is probably less than the soccer fans in either Guatamala and Honduras.
Soccer is a niche sport in the US. It hardly ever gets a mention on SportsCenter and the only soccer on network TV is MLS Opening Day and MLS Gold Cup, and a handful of World Cup matches (I believe it was about 5 matches total on ABC during WC '02, though I may be giving too high a number).
Where are you going to get all these talented players from to play a tactical style of game? Those players are in the next generation, and we can't afford to wait until they are born and come up through the ranks. We need to push for attacking soccer right now, so even if we don't have the best of players, we can still have exciting matches.
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Maquiladora
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Originally posted by MikeH
Really? I don't know anyone who held a grudge. It was disappointing but... against Greece? The most boring cynical team to make it to a European final since... well, Italy in 2000 but that's not the point.
And the Portuguese were so nice to us and such great hosts and we get on so well historically? Yeah, we lost but that happens in football we deserved to the way we crumbled after wonderkid got injured.
I bet you were supporting Brazil in the World Cup final despite them knocking us out. |
Of course but only because they were playing someone we disliked even more, Turkey (semis) then Germany, had they played Holland or someone like that then I wouldnt have backed them.
I dont blame Greece for playing the way they did, I thought it unfair they beat the Czech's, since they were outstanding all tournament, but they deserved to win it against Portugal since Portugal had used their fair share of luck already. Italy playing the way they do on the other hand is worse, because they do have the talent to play like Brazil or France, but they stick to dull football all the time.
And of course they were such great hosts, they were taking all our money 
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:13
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quote:
The MLS developed them and set them up to take advantage of the oppertunities of the top leagues. The MLS DID make them better players than if it had never existed. Without the MLS, plenty of the players in Europe wouldn't have gotten the proper development. Like a lot of leagues in the new world, it's become a decent feeder.
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and that makes MLS soccer good? the only thing MLS does is expose good players on a larger scale, and gives european scouts an easy way to come and buy them and take away, and making the league crappier. without the MLS, scouts would simply go to college games and watch the players there. therefore, i question the use of MLS.
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Not really. 10 years ago soccer was still the #1 participatory sport (youth, especially) and had been throughout the 80s. Those kids didn't stick with the game and they aren't sticking with it too much today either. I'd say it is far less than 'significant'. People who had an interest in soccer can now watch it on Fox Soccer Channel and Gol TV, but I don't see that many new fans.
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and it has increased its participatory level because of exposure due to world cup 94, etc. more kids are playing now then ever before. increase the level of play is key to attracting more fans, because they can watch, learn new moves, and have new heroes, who dont play across the atlantic, home grown heroes, or otherwise.
however, when kids watch MLS and see that it is only marginally better then what they play, there is no inspiration, no heroes to be found.
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You offer him more than he could make in Europe, as well as offering other Euro players similar deals, and he'd come. A lot of it is money. You can't entice good players from Europe by offering them $500,000 a year, when they are used to $5, 10, etc million per year. |
no way, its out of the question. wayne rooney will never put his national team career in question, or will never go play in a kickball league, where his development as a player would be in jeopardy. people dont play below their level, no matter what you pay them.
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You get fans when the game is entertaining. Americans think soccer is boring and nothing happens. You could plop the entire Italian Serie A in the US and it'd fail, because it'd only confirm the worst fears of the soccerphobe.
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only because americans are not soccer smart. but those who have played, will watch, and you will have a solid viewership. nowadays, you have the guys who played soccer not watching cuz its ugly, and you have people from abroad who do watch, but you cant attract americans who have never played because they arnt soccer smart. so the only way to do that is to have a solid base (those who have played and know the game) and then build on that through exposure.
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And how else do you recommend getting quality soccer except by gradually, year by year, trying to create quality young American players (which isn't a one year process, mind)? Until that time you have to engage the masses... play attacking.
Otherwise, in your grand scheme, you get boring soccer which also happens to be ugly, because the talent just isn't there in the MLS to play football on the level of Italy or Spain. It just isn't. |
its simple, you need to bring players in who play soccer, not kickball. we need more donovans, beaseleys, and adu's to a smaller extent. you need to bring to marginal players from europe, players from their countries second league, many of them with better soccer then in the MLS. pay them more then in europe, and get them to come to america. that will increase the leagues level tremendously.
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They have also had a professional soccer league for waaaay longer than the US has. And the amount of soccer fans in the US (in raw numbers) is probably less than the soccer fans in either Guatamala and Honduras.
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so? its a 3rd world country with a few million people. when you compare the MLS to the guatamala league, we have a problem. its proof that the MLS blows, and that you need better players, not more attacking.
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Where are you going to get all these talented players from to play a tactical style of game? Those players are in the next generation, and we can't afford to wait until they are born and come up through the ranks. We need to push for attacking soccer right now, so even if we don't have the best of players, we can still have exciting matches. |
there is nothing exciting about MLS soccer. no one can score from long range, no one is a free kick specialist, no one has any soccer smarts, everyone runs around like headless chickens chasing the ball, not thinking, not building up an attack.how many volley or half volley goals do you see in the MLS? none, because no one can keep it down, the shot always sails into the upperdeck of the stadium. its so ugly its no wonder americans dont watch. i watched this salt lake city player run back an forth between a triangle for 5 passes between defenders in the middle third of the field. i mean, what the hell is that? or midfielders who think that everyball in the air has to be headed, even if they have no power and they turn it over every time. this isnt even tactics, this is being smart with the ball, slowing down and thinking. make deliberate plays. whenever the ball comes close to MLS players, those players get so excited they're like 'holy crap here comes the ball, uh oh here comes a defender, better kick the hell outta the ball and see what happens.' or 'lemme run back and forth between a triangle in a non threatening area of the field and see what happens' or even better 'triangles? what is this, geometry class?'
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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and that makes MLS soccer good? the only thing MLS does is expose good players on a larger scale, and gives european scouts an easy way to come and buy them and take away, and making the league crappier. without the MLS, scouts would simply go to college games and watch the players there. therefore, i question the use of MLS. |
And how many Americans played in Europe when the scouting was done on college campuses? The MLS has allowed those college players to develop. Of course when they get good enough, they'll go to the money.
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and it has increased its participatory level because of exposure due to world cup 94, etc. more kids are playing now then ever before. increase the level of play is key to attracting more fans, because they can watch, learn new moves, and have new heroes, who dont play across the atlantic, home grown heroes, or otherwise. |
Yeah, the same 'more kids are playing now than ever before' was trotted out in the 70s with the NASL, the 80s, and 90s. What makes this era any different? And if anything the MLS allows players to see that they can make money playing soccer, instead of the highest level being the college ranks unless they were amazing standouts.
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people dont play below their level, no matter what you pay them. |
Why don't you ask the USFL players if they thought the same? What about players who go to the UAE? Of course people will go where the money is. Especially since if they are shelling out that much money for Rooney, they are shelling out equally that for every other team.
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but those who have played, will watch, and you will have a solid viewership. nowadays, you have the guys who played soccer not watching cuz its ugly, and you have people from abroad who do watch, but you cant attract americans who have never played because they arnt soccer smart. so the only way to do that is to have a solid base (those who have played and know the game) and then build on that through exposure. |
My brother played and was pretty decent on the high school team, but he doesn't watch a damned bit of soccer. No English league, no Italian league, nothing. He doesn't care about the sport. A vast majority of those who played when kids moved on to the other big time sports in the US. Oh, and MLS has gone for the base and have done far better than anyone could have expected. Unfortunetly, they've tapped it. Now they have to see if they can make money before the 'exposure' comes.
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its simple, you need to bring players in who play soccer, not kickball. we need more donovans, beaseleys, and adu's to a smaller extent. you need to bring to marginal players from europe, players from their countries second league, many of them with better soccer then in the MLS. pay them more then in europe, and get them to come to america. that will increase the leagues level tremendously. |
Once again, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BRING THEM? You keep ignoring time and time again that MLS teams can't pay them the salaries they'd command in Europe. Beasley is making a **** load more at PSV than he would in the MLS. English Championship players are making more than they would at MLS. When your salary cap is less than a substitute at a 1st league would make, you can't get those type of players and have to make due with Americans from college soccer and Latin American players who wouldn't make much from the smaller leagues in the Carribean.
Freddie Adu has the highest guarenteed salary in the league at... $500,000 per year... PER YEAR. And only 16 players last year topped $200,000 in guarenteed salary. Which European players are you going to get for that? 2nd league, 3rd league players?
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there is nothing exciting about MLS soccer. no one can score from long range, no one is a free kick specialist, no one has any soccer smarts, everyone runs around like headless chickens chasing the ball, not thinking, not building up an attack. |
That's because the talent isn't there for a Spanish style or Italian style of game, and there is NO MONEY to get those type of players in the US.
And frankly, most Americans wouldn't watch a league where most players are foriegners. They'd watch less than they do now.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:13
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And how many Americans played in Europe when the scouting was done on college campuses? The MLS has allowed those college players to develop. Of course when they get good enough, they'll go to the money.
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not many, since the US has only recently gotten good enough in soccer to send its players abroad.
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Yeah, the same 'more kids are playing now than ever before' was trotted out in the 70s with the NASL, the 80s, and 90s. What makes this era any different? And if anything the MLS allows players to see that they can make money playing soccer, instead of the highest level being the college ranks unless they were amazing standouts. |
what makes this era different is that the US is doing well in the world cup, and that exposure to soccer is at an unprecendented rate.
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Why don't you ask the USFL players if they thought the same? What about players who go to the UAE? Of course people will go where the money is. Especially since if they are shelling out that much money for Rooney, they are shelling out equally that for every other team. |
yeah, do you know many big name players who play on their national team who play in the UAE?
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My brother played and was pretty decent on the high school team, but he doesn't watch a damned bit of soccer. No English league, no Italian league, nothing. He doesn't care about the sport. A vast majority of those who played when kids moved on to the other big time sports in the US. Oh, and MLS has gone for the base and have done far better than anyone could have expected. Unfortunetly, they've tapped it. Now they have to see if they can make money before the 'exposure' comes. |
he doesnt watch MLS cuz it blows chunks, and he doesnt watch italian/spanish etc, because its foreign and its hard to support a team that you have no connection to. oh, and the base isnt tapped at all - this soccer is so ugly that much of the base is turned off.
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Once again, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BRING THEM? You keep ignoring time and time again that MLS teams can't pay them the salaries they'd command in Europe. Beasley is making a **** load more at PSV than he would in the MLS. English Championship players are making more than they would at MLS. When your salary cap is less than a substitute at a 1st league would make, you can't get those type of players and have to make due with Americans from college soccer and Latin American players who wouldn't make much from the smaller leagues in the Carribean. |
and its the league who set up a salary cap at $1.25 million. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT? thats the dumbest thing ever. its like they are out of their minds. and please, you are making up stats. Servette FCs Roberto Merino, makes 200,000 swiss francs a year, and he is one of their best players. do you know what that means? that 1st league players get paid at most half of that. US teams can easily eat up those salaries. the MLS can pay these guys the money they command.
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Freddie Adu has the highest guarenteed salary in the league at... $500,000 per year... PER YEAR. And only 16 players last year topped $200,000 in guarenteed salary. Which European players are you going to get for that? 2nd league, 3rd league players?
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you can get the top division from many european countrys, and you can get the 1st, and 2nd league players from over 80% of european countries. ALL OF WHOM PLAY BETTER SOCCER then the chumps we have now. MLS can easily afford these players, no one chooses to go out to get them, thats all.
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And frankly, most Americans wouldn't watch a league where most players are foriegners. They'd watch less than they do now.
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oh right, cuz no one watches baseball right.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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not many, since the US has only recently gotten good enough in soccer to send its players abroad. |
Due to having a dedicated league, where talent can develop instead of Europeans going to college teams (which they NEVER did and still don't), where there isn't suitable development going on.
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what makes this era different is that the US is doing well in the world cup, and that exposure to soccer is at an unprecendented rate. |
Yes, they did do well in the WC. But what happens if there is another debacle like France '98? It set soccer back. And then the women won USA '99 and people were saying women's soccer is more popular in the US than men's (some still say it).
It's like my comparison. Having people only interested in soccer every 4 years (and only if we do good) is nothing great. I wonder if even 5% of American sports fans could identify Eddie Johnson.
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yeah, do you know many big name players who play on their national team who play in the UAE? |
Even the sheiks don't have the money (or aren't willing to shell it out) that the big clubs in Europe have. Though those MidEast countries have been able to afford some lesser known talent.
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he doesnt watch MLS cuz it blows chunks, and he doesnt watch italian/spanish etc, because its foreign and its hard to support a team that you have no connection to. oh, and the base isnt tapped at all - this soccer is so ugly that much of the base is turned off. |
No, my brother doesn't watch, because he NO interest in soccer anymore at all. NONE, Nada, Zip, Zilch. He wouldn't care if the best team in the world was next to him. He's like most American youth players, he's moved on.
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WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT? |
CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! Do you even remember the NASL? Why did it go under? Because some teams were buying Pele and Beckenbauer and the rest couldn't compete and had to go under. That's also why the USFL died as well. The MLS decided to be smarter and start slow and not get into price wars while they still had to PAY ESPN to show games.
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you can get the top division from many european countrys, and you can get the 1st, and 2nd league players from over 80% of european countries. ALL OF WHOM PLAY BETTER SOCCER then the chumps we have now. MLS can easily afford these players, no one chooses to go out to get them, thats all. |
Cause Matthaeus played really well  . Stoichkov did ok, but nothing that great. Face it, the 1st and 2nd league players are used to getting more money over in Europe.
And  about making up stats. I guess SI.com makes up stats!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...ls.salaries.sa/
Also interesting was last year's league MVP, Ruiz, made only $50,000 last year. Would a Swiss 1st league guy want to be making that money? And if they can make the same money in Switzerland, why move?
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oh right, cuz no one watches baseball right. |
The majority of baseball players in the major leagues are American. Try again.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 12-04-2005 at 11:13
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:13
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Due to having a dedicated league, where talent can develop instead of Europeans going to college teams, where there isn't suitable development going on. |
the only thing mls develops is kickball skill.
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Yes, they did do well in the WC. But what happens if there is another debacle like France '98? It set soccer back. And then the women won USA '99 and people were saying women's soccer is more popular in the US than men's (some still say it).
It's like my comparison. Having people only interested in soccer every 4 years (and only if we do good) is nothing great. I wonder if even 5% of American sports fans could identify Eddie Johnson. |
98 was no setback. any exposure is a plus.
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CAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY! Do you even remember the NASL? Why did it go under? Because some teams were buying Pele and Beckenbauer and the rest couldn't compete and had to go under. That's also why the USFL died as well. The MLS decided to be smarter and start slow and not get into price wars while they still had to PAY ESPN to show games.
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then get owners with MMONEY. let anyone who wants a team to get one, dont have a closed market.
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Cause Matteus played really well . Stoichkov did ok, but nothing that great. Face it, the 1st and 2nd league players are used to getting more money over in Europe. |
old ass dudes past their prime. good for name recognization, bad for the level.
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Also interesting was last year's league MVP, Ruiz, made only $50,000 last year. Would a Swiss 1st league guy want to be making that money? And if they can make the same money in Switzerland, why move? |
and you have josh wolfe who doesnt even start on the natioinal team making 400 Gs, and hes old. thats a waste of money. a young superleague swiss player would be willing to take 100gs easy, and hes twice the player josh wolfe is.
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The majority of baseball players in the major leagues are American. Try again. |
the majority of the big name, role players are not american.
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11-04-2005 10:11
From a pure football point of view I'll be supporting the nice football side against the 'tactical' one every time. That's why it was a travesty that the Greeks won Euro 2004. I think almost every non Greek in the world wanted Portugal to win. 
I certainly didnt want Portugal to win, and everyone I know didnt either after they knocked us out, good football or not.
I remember the friendly atmosphere when we beat Spain in Euro '96 and then the one when we lost to Germany.
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