07-04-2005 12:55									#61
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If you have sex you're maried for God.
Mariage starts with either sexual intercourse or a promise you make to each other.
Isaac sees his future wife coming, he takes her into his tent and 'takes' her to his housewife.
That's how things went in those days.

So, don't feel guilty if you had sex with someone you didn't marry. Just feel maried.
And when you skip to the next gal, you've just commited adultery.

I don't know why christians put that much importance to subjects like pre-marital sex. There's one focus we christians should have: Jesus died for our sins. Don't focus on the sins, focus on Jesus.

I'm sorry for all those wrong focusses christians make.

	07-04-2005 17:10									#62
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quote: Churches are a goldmine of sexually repressed females. If you can find one who is not overly zealous, you can tap into those repressed feelings and unleash a torrent of passion. This is my second time at the well at this particular church...

Wow. It's like my soul just shriveled up and disappeared.

	07-04-2005 17:18									#63
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark seeing as youre not Jewish (your namesake was though, wasnt she?) , theres no particular reason you should feel bound by a law that, on its own terms, was given to the Jews.

No, molly bloom was married to Leopold Bloom, who was Jewish (but not devout) .

As books pertaining to Mosaic law were incorporated within the Christian holy book, as a former Christian I have had exposure to their teaching and their use as a moral code- not as a law, per se.

Homosexuality and other alleged aberrant practices are frequently described as being 'immoral', and there have been many laws on statute books which would have fitted that category too.

	07-04-2005 17:23									#64
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Wow. It's like my soul just shriveled up and disappeared.

not your soul

	07-04-2005 18:13									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse not your soul

Okay, so what about those two things dangling beneath it? Are either of those my soul?

	07-04-2005 18:34									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Translation: You're shitty in bed and she's looking for an inoffensive way to make her sexual trauma come to an end.

No.



Dude, I am a freakin porn star in the sack. This problem has arisen because she has seen many of her church friends get married in the past year. In passing, I may have mentioned to her that one or another of those couples HAD to have been sexually active based on my observations of them. She became upset and insisted that they all have remained virgins throughout their various courtships. Not long after she began to express some concerns about our sexual activity and I sense a stand may be taken soon (unless I can put her at ease about the subject).

	07-04-2005 19:03									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Elok And if you're willing to manipulate her values to achieve your desired end of sex, regardless of what they actually say, you must share those values, right? Seriously, if you're not even respecting her beliefs there's a problem with this relationship, even I can tell. Healthy relationships are not based on subversion of one person's principles by the other. Even if you like the sex, you'd do better in the long run to let it go, because chances are that you'll hurt her or yourself, or both, by playing this game.

How am I manipulating her values? I want to see if there is a valid argument against the idea that abstention from premarital sex is scriptually based. If I cant come to that conclusion myself, I will not attempt to feed her some BS.

At any time she is free to go if she feels we are too different philosphically. I feel that it is not possible to maintain a healthy sexuality without actually having sex. Having a healthy sexuality matters a great deal to one's quality of life, imo. Obviously, she feels the same way and she would not be screwing me if she felt otherwise.

quote: Yes, I know, you're trying to free her from the naughty evil ideology that consumes her life, but she's presumptively a big girl, and can make decisions on her own. She has chosen to have or hold on to her current beliefs, and if they do need to be tested it shouldn't be by someone with an avowed ulterior motive. Soul-searching should be done with an eye for the truth, whatever it is, not "whatever gets me laid." That's more than a little arrogant and inconsiderate to me.

It is a fact of life that men want sex and hit on women. Do you think that she is not hit on outside of the church community? Perhaps she does not want such men because they have no use for religion at all. Me, on the other hand, I do find some value in religion, and maybe that is all she requires to feel comfortable enough with a man to have sex with him..

I dont think soul-searching is as cut-and-dry as you imply. There is no standard approach. Sometimes you are inspired to soul-search when faced with a practical problem. Such is the case for me in this instance.

I'm willing to accept that I cannot find the answer I am looking for. I think it is healthy to ask the question though. We should not follow church doctrine blindly.

	07-04-2005 19:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Couple things here. Apostle Paul says very clearly that the one who unites himself with a prostitute is united with her in both body and spirit. So to sleep with someone, anyone, is to form a union that should not be broken.

How do you make the connection between 'prostitute' and 'anyone'? Did you read the bit in the original post about how the translation of I Cor 6:9 might confuse these two things?

Where is this passage located?

	07-04-2005 19:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor According to the Bible, it is punishable for a woman not to be virgin at the wedding. Also a betrothed virgin must be stoned if she has sex with somebody else than her bethrothed, and an unbethrothed woman must marry her rapist.

Passage?

	07-04-2005 19:36									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The problem is that admonitions against "fornication" also appear in: Acts 15:20 Galatians 5:19 Ephesians 5:3 Colossians 3:5 1 Thessalonians 4:3 I think it's harder to explain those passages away, esp. since they aren't addressing anyone in Corinth. I suppose one could argue that they all use "fornication" in the same manner, but I would be curious to see what the original Greek says.

As the original post mentions, older versions like KJV translate 'porneia' in I Cor 6:9 as 'fornication' while newer versions like NIV translate it as 'sexual immorality'. I researched the various translations of the passages you have listed and there is a similar discrepancy between versions. So, in all cases the Greek word is 'porneia' and the argument in the original post applies.

Porneia means 'sexual practices for the purposes of worshipping a false god'. Fornication means prostitution. Not the same thing. And 'sexual immorality' means any damn thing your favorite church wants it to mean..

	07-04-2005 19:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 How do you make the connection between 'prostitute' and 'anyone'? Did you read the bit in the original post about how the translation of I Cor 6:9 might confuse these two things? Where is this passage located?

In his mind.

	07-04-2005 19:48									#72
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Dude, I am a freakin porn star in the sack. This problem has arisen because she has seen many of her church friends get married in the past year. In passing, I may have mentioned to her that one or another of those couples HAD to have been sexually active based on my observations of them. She became upset and insisted that they all have remained virgins throughout their various courtships. Not long after she began to express some concerns about our sexual activity and I sense a stand may be taken soon (unless I can put her at ease about the subject).

abandon ship, abandon ship!

	07-04-2005 20:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom No, molly bloom was married to Leopold Bloom, who was Jewish (but not devout) . As books pertaining to Mosaic law were incorporated within the Christian holy book, as a former Christian I have had exposure to their teaching and their use as a moral code- not as a law, per se. Homosexuality and other alleged aberrant practices are frequently described as being 'immoral', and there have been many laws on statute books which would have fitted that category too.

Yah, well, those Christians were a tad confused. Its pretty clear that this is a law for ISRAEL.

Indeed, the question comes up in Judaism as to what the universal code for all humans is. The traditional answer is the sheva mitzvot al bnai Noach - the seven commandments to the sons of Noah (IE everybody). Which includes stuff like not murdering, not stealing, etc but none of the ritual stuff. The question then comes up - if the Torah is given to Israel, and Israel is not supposed to proselytize, and indeed according to some it is forbidden for gentiles to study Torah - how the heck are gentiles supposed to get the noachide commandments? The answer, you may like - the noachide commandments are accessible to all through HUMAN REASON - no revelation is necessary. IE the only universal code IS the code that is accessible to human reason - anything based on revelation is NOT a universal moral code, cause there is NO universal revelation. Now, I daresay most pre-modern Jews, and many Orthodox Jews today, would take for granted that human reason would find arguments against homosexuality, but thats neither here nor there. Within MY movement, Conservative Judaism, weve pretty much reached consensus on a liberal approach to homosexuality as moral issue, and generally support equal treatment under secular law. We are still struggling with how to deal with this under JEWISH law (for issues like commitment ceremonies, status of gay rabbis, and the like) the movement is headed, I think, toward change - you can see a clear generational split in the Conservative Rabbinate on this - but the change requires textual justification and rabbinic consensus.

	07-04-2005 20:11									#74
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The question then comes up - if the Torah is given to Israel, and Israel is not supposed to proselytize, and indeed according to some it is forbidden for gentiles to study Torah - how the heck are gentiles supposed to get the noachide commandments?

Although clearly given the conversion of the Khazars (and large numbers of Ashkenazim) this can't have been rigidly adhered to.


From what I recall of early Christian history, the split occurred when gentile converts to what was then still a sect of Judaism tried to control synagogues in various areas- or at least that's what I seem to recall from reading Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A History of God'.


She had a very good piece in yesterday's Guardian about the rise of casual anti-semitism in modern politics and society.

	07-04-2005 20:11									#75
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 How am I manipulating her values? .

cause like on the one hand, if she wasnt repressed you wouldnt find her so hot. Or maybe you wouldnt find her available at all, since she might be with someone else whos not into the whole repressed thing. But now you want her to STOP being repressed now that shes with you.

The key is the word "seduced". Which in english connotes getting someone who consciously doesnt want to proceed to do so, in various ways. It implies manipulation. Now this can work out just fine for all concerned I suppose, OR it can leave feelings of deception and betrayal.

In any case, you proceed at your own risk, Monsieur Valmont, and i dont think you need our help.

BTW, HAVE you read Liasons Dangereuses?

	07-04-2005 20:16									#76
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Although clearly given the conversion of the Khazars (and large numbers of Ashkenazim) this can't have been rigidly adhered to. From what I recall of early Christian history, the split occurred when gentile converts to what was then still a sect of Judaism tried to control synagogues in various areas- or at least that's what I seem to recall from reading Karen Armstrong's excellent 'A History of God'. She had a very good piece in yesterday's Guardian about the rise of casual anti-semitism in modern politics and society.

Conversion was, (at least according to the "official" viewpoint) always initiated by the would be convert - its pretty clear consensus viewpoint that proselytizing is unacceptable. during the mishnaic era there was debate about whether it was even ok to accept converts - there were halachik issues, but also a concern about informers and the like. The consensus was to accept, but only after initial discouragement. There is still a notion that gentiles who are not prospective converts are not supposed to learn torah, but I dont think that was held universally even premodern times.

Havent read KA. I will look for the Guardian article.

	07-04-2005 22:41									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 abandon ship, abandon ship!

he speaks da troof!


but in all sincerity, have her make the decision. just lay it out on the table, and give her some time to think about it. either she wants to be with you (and everything that entails), or she doesn't. i can understand how she might feel conflicting emotions about it, but there's only two people she has to reconcile her actions to: herself and god. damn what anyone else might think. it might be based on a desire to be "well liked" by her community, or thought of in a certain light.

however, i think you'd be better off with someone a little less naive. though i'd refrain from trolling the churches for these repressed individuals, as the same problem might arise.

	07-04-2005 23:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy If you have sex you're maried for God. Mariage starts with either sexual intercourse or a promise you make to each other. Isaac sees his future wife coming, he takes her into his tent and 'takes' her to his housewife. That's how things went in those days. So, don't feel guilty if you had sex with someone you didn't marry. Just feel maried. And when you skip to the next gal, you've just commited adultery. I don't know why christians put that much importance to subjects like pre-marital sex. There's one focus we christians should have: Jesus died for our sins. Don't focus on the sins, focus on Jesus. I'm sorry for all those wrong focusses christians make.

I think this is essentially correct. Fornication in the bible was clearly referring to being with harlots. Sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman was tantamount to being married. Sex between a married man or woman and someone else other than a prostitute was adultery. Sex with prostitutes was not considered to be adultery.

Which brings us to the subject of Rodrigo Borgia. He had a common law wife with whom he had four children. Still, he became pope.

	08-04-2005 00:30									#79
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quote: Originally posted by self biased he speaks da troof! but in all sincerity, have her make the decision. just lay it out on the table, and give her some time to think about it. either she wants to be with you (and everything that entails), or she doesn't. i can understand how she might feel conflicting emotions about it, but there's only two people she has to reconcile her actions to: herself and god. damn what anyone else might think. it might be based on a desire to be "well liked" by her community, or thought of in a certain light. however, i think you'd be better off with someone a little less naive. though i'd refrain from trolling the churches for these repressed individuals, as the same problem might arise.

sex shouldnt be a thing you fight over. you guys either mutually want to do it, or you dont. it should never be a thing of coercion or someone sacrificing their viewpoint. unless youre roleplaying that

	08-04-2005 18:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by self biased but in all sincerity, have her make the decision. just lay it out on the table, and give her some time to think about it. either she wants to be with you (and everything that entails), or she doesn't. i can understand how she might feel conflicting emotions about it, but there's only two people she has to reconcile her actions to: herself and god. damn what anyone else might think. it might be based on a desire to be "well liked" by her community, or thought of in a certain light.

I intend to do this. She has many qualities other than being a sex object. If she feels sex no longer has a place in our relationship, I will respect her wishes, continue to be friends with her, greatly reduce the amount of time I spend with her, and greatly increase the amount of time I spend with other chicks who are putting out for me.... Then she will begin to sense my apathy and panic and start putting out for me again.

	08-04-2005 19:41									#81
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nm

	08-04-2005 19:51									#82
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Show her the wonders of technicalvirgin.com
Then you might not get full sex, but you'll still get everything else, and she can feel good about herself. Caution: she has to be somewhat of a retard to fall for this. And having sex with retards is only sometimes fun.

	08-04-2005 20:05									#83
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a thread for the one dimensional

	08-04-2005 20:49									#84
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In any case, you proceed at your own risk, Monsieur Valmont, and i dont think you need our help. BTW, HAVE you read Liasons Dangereuses?

No, I have not read that book, but I saw the movie. I can live with whatever path this relationship takes. I would, however, like to see if anyone can prove to me that there is scriptural support against premarital sex. I think I have refuted this idea successfully within this thread..

	08-04-2005 21:58									#85
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quote: Churches are a goldmine of sexually repressed females. If you can find one who is not overly zealous, you can tap into those repressed feelings and unleash a torrent of passion. This is my second time at the well at this particular church...

Get your sick advice from somewhere else, pervert.

	08-04-2005 22:28									#86
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quote: How do you make the connection between 'prostitute' and 'anyone'? Did you read the bit in the original post about how the translation of I Cor 6:9 might confuse these two things? Where is this passage located?

This is a different passage, 1 Cor 6:16. Paul is clearly referring to Christ when Christ talks about the ideal of marriage in divorce.

Here's why I say that:

This is Christ in Matthew: 19:4-6

“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

And Paul, in 1 Cor 6:16

Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”

Oh, and Molly, I most assuredly do not make these things up.

	08-04-2005 22:32									#87
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Get your sick advice from somewhere else, pervert.

Stop acting like a girl.

	08-04-2005 22:53									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi This is a different passage, 1 Cor 6:16. Paul is clearly referring to Christ when Christ talks about the ideal of marriage in divorce. Here's why I say that: This is Christ in Matthew: 19:4-6 “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” And Paul, in 1 Cor 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” Oh, and Molly, I most assuredly do not make these things up.

Without addressing the textual point, it would seem to me that Ben is right, Paul must be referring to the quote from Matthew, NOT to the original text in Genesis/bereishit. Jewish texts of only slightly more recent date (like the Mishna) always say "it is written" when referring to the Torah (in the narrow sense of the 5 books of Moses), and "it is said" when referring to Prophets. Did Saul/Paul follow this distinction in his other writings?

re: the text
'"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife," Genesis 2:24 teaches, "and they shall become one flesh." The sages of the Talmud and Midrash explicate the phrase "one flesh" as teaching that the ultimate purpose of human sexuality is the continued viability of creation. In Rashi's words, "The child is formed through the two of them and there, their flesh becomes one." The Torah identifies marriage, the sanctified union of man and woman, as the best means to achieve God's cosmic purpose. The future of humanity is assured only by the creation of progeny.'

Rabbi Gerson Gewirtz

IE the uniting of the flesh is that unification of the flesh us parents witness every day, the creation of a child who partakes of the physical existence of BOTH parents. This cant really be applied to a casual encounter, despite Saul/Paul. In fact it hardly argues for the biblical impossibility of divorce, which is of course allowed by Torah. Christians claim this as a concession to the weakwilled of that generation - but then the church has always needed to create annulments to serve the same purpose - and given them even where children, the one flesh, exist.

	09-04-2005 10:03									#89
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Paul must be referring to the quote from Matthew, NOT to the original text in Genesis/bereishit.

That would be quite a trick, since Matthew was most likely written after Paul was dead.

	09-04-2005 14:17									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Oh, and Molly, I most assuredly do not make these things up.

Given that we haven't heard much about your expertise in either Old Testament Hebrew or New Testament Greek or indeed time travelling, then you're relying on your interpretations of someone else's translation and interpretation of a text written in and for a particular historical context thousands of years ago.


In other words, it could have said whatever the politico-religious inclinations of the translator wanted it to say, especially given the difference between language as poetics/revelation and language as legal manual/rational description.


Martin Luther's 'translation' of the Bible said what he wanted it so say, for instance. So sorry, your 'version' is no more accurate or true than any number of others.