09-04-2005 15:01									#91
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the bible completely banned sex

	09-04-2005 20:32									#92
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Tell that to King David!

	10-04-2005 01:57									#93
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The clincher in this argument is if there were a Latin or Greek word for sex per se that is not linked to sex with temple or other prostitutes. I hardly think that Paul and others in such a age would declare a young girl who has sex out of love be declared a "harlot." Harlotry clearly implies commercial sex.

One also has to remember the times. Yound girls married at 13 or 14. The opportunities for sex with unmarried girls was very limited even while the opportunity for sex with prostitutes was unlimited.

	10-04-2005 05:02									#94
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quote: Given that we haven't heard much about your expertise in either Old Testament Hebrew or New Testament Greek or indeed time travelling, then you're relying on your interpretations of someone else's translation and interpretation of a text written in and for a particular historical context thousands of years ago.

Which is quite different than making it up out of whole cloth.

No, I am not a scholar in the NT Greek or the OT Hebrew, and nor do I claim to be. However, if this is your thesis, the onus is on you to show why we should not accept the interpretation I have shown.

As for complaints of bias, do note that I am quoting from the NIV, as that is considered to be a very good translation by these authorities, moreso than our older versions simply because we have access to older manuscripts than we had earlier.

quote: In other words, it could have said whatever the politico-religious inclinations of the translator wanted it to say, especially given the difference between language as poetics/revelation and language as legal manual/rational description.

One thing to speculate. Another to prove Molly.

quote: Martin Luther's 'translation' of the Bible said what he wanted it so say, for instance. So sorry, your 'version' is no more accurate or true than any number of others.

Well, its a good thing that I don't quote Martin Luther's version than. Strawman.

	10-04-2005 05:06									#95
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quote: That would be quite a trick, since Matthew was most likely written after Paul was dead.

Very true. Both quote the same passage in Genesis, which is something I wondered if LoTM would be willing to admit.

Thank you for further establishing my argument, Boris.

	10-04-2005 05:25									#96
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I swear he thinks he's the freakin Pope

	10-04-2005 09:37									#97
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I am wondering why everyone here knows how to dechiper the bible. You know what your taught, not what you read unless your a ****ing genusis.

	10-04-2005 09:39									#98
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<--------- ****ing genius

	10-04-2005 09:43									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker <--------- ****ing genius

yes dear you are

	10-04-2005 09:57									#101
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isnt it true that poetry is like the bible you dont know the meaning unles you wrote it? I dont think any of you guys worte the bible so you dont know what they were saying. You only know what was taught to you by folks that translate it for you.

	10-04-2005 10:06									#102
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my Aramaic and Hebrew is a bit rusty

	10-04-2005 10:16									#103
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Given that Prostitution is quoted as being the worlds oldest profession, with Spying as the second, shouldn't all Religions accept that the former happens due to the urge to procreate, therefore condemning it is an own goal for a Church, whilst useful education would be good?

When we died at 25-30 in ancient times, we needed a partner once we hit puberty, now we live until about 70 the rush for a partner isn't necessary, whilst the sex drive remains- sensible adaptation by the Church to bring biblical teachings upto date on the reality of modern life and modern life expectancy is long overdue.

I was born a Catholic and I see on the news HIV and AIDS kill faithful members of the Church daily (talk about killing off the faithful!!)

You can't change Human nature much but you can change biblical teachings to being based upon the real world, not one from 2,000 years ago.

For this reason I remain agnostic, not aithiest like my mum.

Toby

Ps,

Reading the swearing above, If a couple live together for 6 years having sex (or in reality making love as you do), my Priest wouldn't marry me based on the Bible, If 6 years of living together isn't a serious commitment, what is? Much better than a one-night stand I feel.

The world has changed drastically since the Bible was written, the New Testament was an attempt to keep up with reality 500 years ago.

Humankind is constantly having to accept new inventions that change our lives, and the last 80 years have brought huge changes to how humans live and act (Radio, television, Internet and two World Wars that solidified the nation state as supreme regarding loyalty of a human to it, not to religion: (as the Founding Fathers wished for in the US when they fled religious oppression in Europe.)

I wish the Christian Churches would sit down, talk about historical changes, perhaps decide the world is different to the Roman Empire and oppression of Christians and Jews when written, along with War elephants as a weapon and do an even Newer Bible that accepts how the world is today.

Most humans experience a life that is very different to what the book taught these days. it needs to be updated; chastising the average person in the street will make most simply laugh.

In my Grandfathers day, he went to the Priest for advice, whilst my son sends a text to several mates on his mobile phone.

Sex is free, so is HIV, condoms are good, as is teaching the virtue of a relationship, over one-night stands made in a nightclub and forgotten at 7am.

I want a new Bible before I'll consider my religion, or any other again.

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 10-04-2005 at 18:10

	10-04-2005 10:28									#104
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 I'm already in, but she is feeling guilty and wants to stop. And yes, that is my primary concern - wanting to prevent that from happening, but the whole thing has made me want to examine the church's position on premarital sex more closely. In the past, I have just ignored the church position, now I want to fight it.

Are you sure she wants to stop because of religious beliefs? It is possible she just isn't as in to you as she used to be. Nothing personal but I wanted to explore all options.

	10-04-2005 11:07									#105
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considering he seems to be a complete arsehole that seems quite likely

	10-04-2005 17:40									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, its a good thing that I don't quote Martin Luther's version than. Strawman.

Odd, don't recall saying you did. Are you seeing things ?


I used Luther as an illustration of how a translator of a text can use their own doctrinal or political inclinations to transform or emend an original text.

The fact that you then falsely accused me of saying you had used Luther's translation and just before had asked me to prove that a translator can distort a text to suit their own purposes (implying you wouldn't dream of using such a tainted text) indicates you can't even seem to follow the thread of your own arguments.


The point, which you seem in your eagerness to mistake the trees for the wood, is that you consistently use a translation of a text that suits your doctrinal and political viewpoint.


You also ignored the point that a text which is written in a particular time and a particular context is not for all time when it deals with changing human societies and mores.


If you want it to apply to you and your lifestyle, fine. But don't use it to judge others, and don't act as though your version is the sole version or necessarily a 'correct' version.


Oh, and faux sententiousness is not a happy prose style.

	10-04-2005 18:17									#108
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Oh, and faux sententiousness is not a happy prose style.

Thats gotta hurt

but he'll have to get a dictionary

	10-04-2005 18:25									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Thats gotta hurt but he'll have to get a dictionary

Well, I used to ignore it before, but since the conversion to unnatural gas it's been even more noticeable.

	10-04-2005 19:50									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I swear he thinks he's the freakin Pope

No, he cheats. He's actually read the book being discussed, not just the Cliff notes.

	10-04-2005 23:55									#111
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Since no one answered my question as to what the greek word is for sexual intercourse, per se, I took a stab it myself. I came up with two words:

1. sunoursia; and
2. aphrodiria.

Now, if the writers of ancient texts wanted to condemn sex outside of marriage, why wouldn't they have used one of these words instead of a word, "porneia," that clearly relates almost exclusively to sex with a harlot, "porne."

I also find it somewhat amuzing that the footnote (Catholic Bible) to Matthew 5:32 does not refer to Matthew 9:19 in stating that this passage, with authorizes divorce, does not in fact authorize divorce, but only separation. Taken together, though, the two passages clearly authorize divorce and remarriage by both spouses if a wife commits adultery.

But the combination of the word porneia with the two Matthew verses can lead one to conclude that what is condemned is sex with harlots by married men, which, I have noted before, was not considered to be adultery under Roman Law.

	10-04-2005 23:57									#112
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The concept that the Church condemns sex outside "marriage," meaning, of course, formalized marriage by priest or civil authority, ignores the relationship Adam had with Eve, and indeed, almost all humans had with their spouses prior to the rise of civilization.

	11-04-2005 09:08									#113
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quote: faux sententiousness is not a happy prose style.

Why thank you molly. I think that's the best thing you've ever said about me. I didn't know you also valued humility as a virtue.

quote: I used Luther as an illustration of how a translator of a text can use their own doctrinal or political inclinations to transform or emend an original text.

The strawman is not in citing Luther, but in applying Luther to the NIV.

I am not saying the NIV is free of these, but in order to prove the bias of the NIV, is something rather different than to prove the bias of Luther. The one bias will not necessarily resemble the other.

quote: You also ignored the point that a text which is written in a particular time and a particular context is not for all time when it deals with changing human societies and mores.

If Christ perfectly upholds the morals of God, and God is unchanging, than his morals will be just as valid today as yesterday.

Christianity doesn't claim to be human teachings for a human society, but rather, to be the teachings of God for a human society.

quote: don't act as though your version is the sole version or necessarily a 'correct' version.

Odd. One could say my use of the NIV is of an ecumenical bent, as this version is most certainly not the approved one for the Catholic church.

	11-04-2005 09:17									#114
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Is a NIV like skvies? Because my girlfriend showed my some cute skivies she modeled for me the other night.

	11-04-2005 09:32									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove No, he cheats. He's actually read the book being discussed, not just the Cliff notes.

Well I can't speak for others but I have read the bible from cover to cover, including a few chapters protestants don't read. I know it quite well.

So don't get snooty with me, you uppity heretic

	11-04-2005 12:15									#116
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Which chapters are those?

	11-04-2005 15:08									#117
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They are called "The Aprocrypha" or Deuterocanonical texts - the books of Tobit, Judith, Macabees, some other books and additions to other books.

Interestingly they were included in the original King James bible of 1611.

My bible is an ecumenical version approved by both the catholic church and the protestant national council of the churches of Christ, USA.

It was the first ever bible to be so approved

	11-04-2005 17:23									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The strawman is not in citing Luther, but in applying Luther to the NIV.

I don't have to prove the N.I.V. 's bias one way or another: I have only to show my point, that a translator changes a text when putting it into another language.


They may do so because there is a specific term that doesn't translate too easily (Weltanschauung, elan, chutzpah, manana) because there is a concept not fully understood, or non-existent in the language/culture the text is being put into, or because of their particular bias, be it sectarian or political, and so on.


I fail to see what's ecumenical about your use of the N.I.V.- Roman Catholicism may be the latest sect you've joined, but your use of a particular version of the Bible is your choice, presumably because it suits your viewpoints.

English Presbyterians or Scots Calvinists may quote from the Authorized King James Version rather than the Geneva Bible, but it makes them no more ecumenical than me- it could simply be they recognise good prose when they see it.

I know that many evangelicals favour the N.I.V and many don't; I'm also aware that there have been (and presumably will be) many translations of the Bible into English and other languages, and that differing Christian sects prefer their interpretations and their translations to others.

Presumably you don't favour the Quakers' injunction against oath-taking- for which they cite Biblical justification. Or the Jehovah's Witnesses' injunctions against celebrating birthdays, Christmas or the transfusion of whole blood- for which again they cite Biblical precedent.


With regard to your prose style- snippy comments about humility don't enter into it- I've studied the English language and literature in English and thought I'd just give you the benefit of my experience.

	12-04-2005 02:33									#119
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and as literature goes the King James is a masterpiece, unfortunately its riddle with errors.

	12-04-2005 02:49									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Very true. Both quote the same passage in Genesis, which is something I wondered if LoTM would be willing to admit. Thank you for further establishing my argument, Boris.

Oy, im no expert on the dating of Matthew. But why does that matter? I assume, for the purpose of this arguement, that Matthew is quoting JC correctly - and the original quote antedates Pauls letter - Paul could have had that quote from an oral tradition - whatever source Matthew got it from. My point is to AGREE that both NT quotes are in agreement.

But again if its a direct reference to the Bereishit, why doesnt Paul say "it is written"?