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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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There are many references to ‘sexual immorality’ and “the sexually immoral” within the bible, most of them in the NT by Paul, but they seem to be referring to adultery, incest, and other perversions. Don’t really see any specific NT references to premarital sex as immoral. Don’t even see that implied. It was St Augustine who first floated that idea in his Confessions:
quote:
In Book 2 of the Confessions Augustine describes his further descent into moral disorder during his adolescent years. By the time that a youth reaches adolescence, and becomes conscious of the demands of the moral law, his sins take on a far more troubling dimension than they previously had: whereas the child cannot be held personally accountable for his sins, the adolescent, by freely and consciously choosing to transgress God’s law, incurs a far greater penalty for his transgressions than he previously would have incurred.
In 2.2 Augustine contrasts the ordered love ( caritas), in which the soul loves created thing in God, and disordered love (cupiditas or LUST), in which the soul craves created things for their own sake. Augustine's lust leaves him "storm-tossed" and "boil[ing] over in [his] fornication." During this period he describes himself as sinking further and further into his own depravity, because there was no one around who could put "measure on [his] disorder. [Remember: although he is nominally a Catholic he is not officially a member of any Church because he has yet to be baptized]
He comes home from Madura for a short reprieve from his studies. We get the sense in chapter 2.3 that he believes that his parents failed to provide him with the kind of guidance he needed to avoid falling to sexual temptation. Instead of imparting a unified message about the dangers of sexual activity outside of marriage, they all but justified his illicit behavior. Although his mother Monica initially warned Augustine against premarital intercourse, she almost immediately qualified her warning by discouraging him instead against adultery—a message which he evidently took to heart. Still worse, his father seemed completely uninterested "in how chaste I was," and at times even encouraged his burgeoning sexuality.
Although there is some speculation about the extent of Augustine's wanton activities during this period, most scholars maintain that Augustine did nothing worse than the average young adult in Roman society. Remember: he is writing the Confessions after his conversion and like all converts he is hyper-sensitive about his failings. |
That book was relevant in the 4th century. It was based on 4th century morality not on scripture. Read something interesting online about biblical references to fornication as well:
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I Cor 6:9 badly mistranslate "porneia" as fornication. Corinth was a wide-open port city. People there could get sex any way they wanted it. Where our English translations read 'fornication', Paul's original Greek word was 'porneia' which means to sell and refers to slaves bought and sold for cultic prostitution. What was happening in the Temples of Corinth was farmers were visiting the temple priestesses who represented the fertility Gods. By having sex with these prostitutes they believed their fields would be more fertile. It didn't even have to do with going to prostitutes, but pagan cultic worship.
In Rome, the Latin prostitutes would hang out in small alley's and behind small L shaped walls. In Latin the shape is called FORNIX, hence the place association with acts of prostitution gave "fornicatio" Where Paul was condemning sex goddess, cultic, prostitution or trafficking in slaves for that purpose, the Latin fathers substituted 'fornicatio', which led readers to believe that Paul was condemning all forms of premarital sexual intercourse."
Some modern English Bible versions translate "porneia" as "sexual immorality", a term which is supposed to clarify the somewhat obscure and dated "fornication", but is really a catch-all term that allows interpreters, both professional and lay, to apply this passage to any sexual behavior at all, far beyond the specific practices to which Paul refers.
From "Halley's Bible Handbook" 1 Cor. 6: 9-20; "Venus was the principal Deity of Corinth. Her temple was one of the most magnificent buildings in the city. In it a thousand Priestesses, Public Prostitutes, were kept, at public expense, there always ready for Immoral Indulgence, as worship to their Goddess." The Christians continued to go to the temple for sexual indulgences with the priestesses of Venus. This was all Paul was talking about and he says nothing about loving sexual pleasure-sharing with non-goddesses'!
It does violation to the Biblical text to assume I Cor.6:9 includes pre-marital sex, especially since that is not the context of the discussion, either of that chapter or of the surrounding chapters. The context of I Cor.6 is the problems with the Temple of Aphrodite. Sex with those prostitutes was idolatrous. The argument that Paul condemns singles' sex here or anywhere else in scripture is faulty interpretation. Such a position is illogical because your assumptions are based on emotional constructs rather than on history and on hard evidence.
Nothing in the NT indicates any prohibition of singles' sexuality. It seems that if we apply Jesus' teaching of love over legalism, responsible Christian sexuality is much more an example of Christ's loving desire for us than the traditional biblical values of many wives, concubines as breeders, and capturing women in battle for soldiers' sexual pleasure!
A Prodigy poster said: "..I think that David H's post cannot be so easily dismissed. I am not a theologian-although I did attend a seminary...and I have studied a fair amount of Greek.....While at the seminary, I wrote a paper on the translation of "porneia". As you must know if you have studied the question, "fornication" is a bald mistranslation of "porneia" (even my very conservative Greek professor conceded this point). If one discounts the N.T. passages containing this mistranslation--including the selection from Thessalonians...there is little remaining support for the position that the Bible condemns premarital sexuality....if one takes an objective view of what the Bible has to say on the subject, sexuality outside of marriage seems to be accepted....I would also acknowledge that most people would be happier...if they would simply accept the church's traditional position...But to condemn all sexuality outside of marriage as sin seems to go well beyond what the Bible teaches--and Paul has a good deal to say about that in Galatians."
All of us should search our own spirits. God can lead people differently, resulting in reaching different people in sharing Christ's love. We also must respect others' beliefs but try not to cause another to stumble, since some cannot handle emotionally anything other than the traditional Church view.
Again a Prodigy poster: "Scripture is only one way God speaks to us and has a number of limitations because it was not written with modern conditions in mind. While reading scripture is useful, it is only useful when done in prayer.. and in not relying on the Holy Spirit but relying instead on the Bible as a substitute for His wisdom. In the absence of unambiguous mandate from scripture, it is wrong for me to impose a personal moral code on others who believe differently". |
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I read in the Bibble that if you have pre-marital sex, then you are considered married to that person. I don't remember where it was though. Of course, if you then go an sleep with someone else, you're committing adultry, and can be executed. |
I dont recall the text, but in later Jewish law this is essentially what we call common law marriage. You can marry someone by exchanging gifts, OR you can marry by intercourse. BUT - you have to INTEND the intercourse as a form of marriage, or it dont count. This comes up in the case of granting annulments, a difficult problem in Jewish law, since a divorce must be granted by the husband, an impossibility if hes, say, absconded, or simply refuses to show up in a rabbinic court to grant the divorce. In such cases freeing the woman to remarry requires an annulment, and one wants to do that on actual legal grounds. One ground is that the marriage ceremony was faulty. A reform marriage ceremony, which probably wont have proper witnesses according to J law as interpreted by the Orthodox (or even Conservative) WOULD be faulty, and so annulment could be granted on that ground. (this is helpful in cases where the couple started Reform, the wife became Orthodox, and the Reform husband refuses on ideological grounds to go before an Orthodox rabbinic court) The counter is that the couple had intercourse and so are married anyway. The counter to THAT is that because the couple INTENDED their Reform ceremony to establish their marriage, they did NOT intend the intercourse to do so, and so it did not. QED.
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self biased
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Yggdrasil.
Nov 1999
time: 00:16
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1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by self biased
quote:
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? |
your friend is incorrect. Neighboring nations means anyone whos not an Israelite. But more important is the principle of "dina d'malchuta dina" the law of the state IS law - since slavery is illegal in the US, to keep a slave WOULD violate Jewish law. Ditto trading stocks on insider knowledge.  Assuming you are posting from the US.
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2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? |
see above
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3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. |
A woman who keeps jewish law would know, and if unsure would know whom to ask. If she does NOT keep Jewish law, than a nice Jewish boy like yourself shouldnt be in contact with her anyway.
quote:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? |
The temple was destroyed in 69 CE. Its NOT permitted to render animal sacrifices anywhere else. If you have done so you have committed a major sin, and you should see a rabbi immediately.
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I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it? |
1. If hes not Jewish, theres no problem, since the Sabbath is binding on Jews only. Second, see Dina d'malchuta dina above - there are alternate ways to punish a sabbath breaker today, most of which involve forms of ostracism and exclusion from Jewish ritual acts. third, ANY imposition of the death penalty for any reason MUST be imposed only by a properly constituted rabbinic court, and even such a court must do so as sparingly as possible. As it is written in the Talmud, a court that imposes the death penalty more than once a generation is a bloody court.
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A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination? |
You are correct. Scientific studies show homosexuality may be hereditary, and so leniency must be found for a lifestyle that is apparently not a choice. I have yet to see evidence that craving for crab cakes is hereditary, outside of Maryland.
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Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here? |
Again, this refers to the sacrificial altar in the Temple, destroyed in 69 CE. No Temple, no problem. In any case I dont think you can approach the altar if your not a Kohen. Are you a Kohen?
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Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? |
Its not a capital offense, IIRC. They SHOULD and would be excluded from ultraOrthodox Jewish circles. I note that observant Conservative and Modern Orthodox Jews DO cut the hair around the temples (the "peahs") Im not sure of the legal reasoning allowing this leniency, but could try looking it up.
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9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? |
A very good question. I will have to look this up.
quote:
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) |
Not only are the agricultural laws incumbent on Jews only, for the most part they are incumbent only in the land of Israel. Once again these are NOT capital offenses. By the way AFAIK theres no issue with cotton/poly blends, its only wool/linen blends that are at issue. There are trained rabbis who can inspect any questionable cloth for you.
hope this helps
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:16
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" 2) Related question: Is it permitted to wear pigskin shoes, carry a
> pigskin wallet, and/or touch a pigskin football? One the one hand, one
> is not supposed to come in contact with that carcass of a non-kosher
> animal, but most people swat flies, and many wear pigskin shoes, etc.
It is permitted to do all of these things. I don't know where people
get the idea that one shouldn't touch the carcass of an unkosher
animal. Such contact does impart tum'ah, but so does the carcass
of a kosher animal. In any case, there is no prohibition on becoming
tamei."
LOTM - IE YES, you become "impure" (arguably a mistranslation of Tamei) , but thats ok as long as you are "purified" at a mikveh before engaging in certain ritual acts.
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06-04-2005 19:35
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