10-04-2005 20:31									#61
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Gross oversimplifacation of Marxism so the criticism is easier. This however causes the criticism to be faulty and ignores much of the in depth analysis that Marx and other Marxists have done. In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.

	10-04-2005 20:35									#62
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learn some math

	10-04-2005 20:38									#63
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Learning math is for people who can't do math.

	10-04-2005 20:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by pchang learn some math

Ooh, good come back. Let me try.

Learn to read.

	10-04-2005 21:18									#65
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I've never had any use for Marx's sociological treatment of capitalism, but his description of capitalism's boom-bust cycle was in some respects valid for a time when looking at the US economy. We've had several full-blown depressions through the years, the Great Depression being the most well known, of course.

The things he got wrong are numerous, but the biggest is that he underestimated capitalism's ability to deal with its inherent problems. The rise of the independent central bank is the most important fix, since it evens out the boom-bust cycle into something manageable for market participants. The US has had only two quarters of negative economic growth in about 15 years, for instance.

I put the social safety net and government involvement in the economy well down on the list of fixes that were necessary to keep the system working, and indeed these might stop some of capitalism's corrective mechanisms from working their magic. That's not to say that some of these things might be valid for other reasons, such as an attempt to make the economic system more just. But the system is sustainable without those changes.

	10-04-2005 22:25									#66
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, what does Communism and Christianity have in common? 1. Both promise a Utopian tomorrow: heaven vs. the classless society. 2. Both act as a moral and temporal force upon millions (or billions). 3. Both have laid the theoretical foundations for a vast amount of increasingly grandiose (but rational!) poppycock and bullshit. 4. Both have acted detrimentally and positively towards billions of people. 5. Both claim to be for the "people", the oppressed, the meek that are to inherit the Earth. See #1. 6. Both get hijacked by the rich, the powerful, the controlling, even the sadistic. See #5, #1. 7. Both were founded by a theoretician (or theologian, as Jesus would be more accurately described), but then were firmly established by leaders of great States: Jesus had his Constantine, Marx had his Lenin. 8. Large swaths of the globe are completely unaware of the ideological and theological issues that torment Communists and Christians. Couldn't give a ****, really. 9. Both are growing increasingly irrelevant to the modern sections of our civilization. And on and on, even down to the coincidental fact that both movements were founded by Jews. Yeah, it's a religion.

Free market economics and Christianity:

1. Both promise a Utopian tomorrow: heaven vs. the American Dream.
2. Both act as a moral and temporal force upon millions (or billions).
3. Both have laid the theoretical foundations for a vast amount of increasingly grandiose (but rational!) poppycock and bullshit.
4. Both have acted detrimentally and positively towards billions of people.
5. Both claim to be for the "people", the honest hard-working Joe, the meek that are to inherit the Earth.
6. Both get hijacked by the rich, the powerful, the controlling, even the sadistic.
7. Both were founded by a theoretician (or theologian, as Jesus would be more accurately described), but then were firmly established by leaders of great states: Jesus had his Constantine, Adam Smith had his British Empire and USA.
8. Large swaths of the globe are completely unaware of the regulatory and theological issues that torment free-marketeers and Christians.
9. Both are growing increasingly irrelevant to the modern sections of our civilization.

And Marx wasn't Jewish.

One can turn any political, social or economic movement into a religion using your definition - even atheism, probably.

	10-04-2005 22:30									#67
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Like I said, it's ecomics in general that is religion. Captialism and communism are just different sects.

	10-04-2005 23:22									#68
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Yes, but so were Aquinas's. Just because something is based upon "rational arguments" doesn't mean it's true or that it's going to work, it just means that you swallowed the assumptions that made the argument "rational". You believe that the "class struggle" is paramount, that history is driven by economic conditions, that "capitalism" is a necessary evil on the way to the perfect "classless society." These are necessary assumptions that you first must swallow in order to believe in Communism.

That's not true, you're free to accept any assumption you wish, make your own, or just see Marx as an interesting sociologist (instead of a political philosopher).

quote: Especially as it has proven itself to not work in the real world. Now that requires a leap of faith!

If it were so easy to dismiss a system as not working, you could simply say that capitalism has proven itself not to work because it leaves 85% of humanity in misery, that the economic theories are BS, and that in practice it just results in corrupt oligarchs setting unfair commercial policies.

	11-04-2005 02:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, what does Communism and Christianity have in common? .... Yeah, it's a religion.

Well that pretty much confirms that you have no idea what religion is either. Wow!

	11-04-2005 02:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Gross oversimplification of society into "classes" so the math of analysis is much easier. However, this causes the model to be faulty and ignores many 2nd order and 3rd order terms that are necessary to correctly model dynamic environments.

Let's see that math if you don't mind.

	11-04-2005 02:33									#71
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT You believe that the "class struggle" is paramount, that history is driven by economic conditions, that "capitalism" is a necessary evil on the way to the perfect "classless society." These are necessary assumptions that you first must swallow in order to believe in Communism.

Not really. I doubt if any commumists here believe in all of those. It's not necessary to make all of those assumptions even though Marx did.

quote: Especially as it has proven itself to not work in the real world. Now that requires a leap of faith!

You have no idea what proof is either?

	11-04-2005 02:51									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I've never had any use for Marx's sociological treatment of capitalism, but his description of capitalism's boom-bust cycle was in some respects valid for a time when looking at the US economy. We've had several full-blown depressions through the years, the Great Depression being the most well known, of course.

For a time? What about the last recession in the US? There's more capital out there than ever now, probably because of central banks. Do you think central banks will always be able to make sure there is enough productive uses for the ever increasing amount? The amount of capital seems to increase at faster rate.

	11-04-2005 04:25									#73
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forget about Marx

If you want to know who was the most influential economic thinker of our time look at this guy, Friedrich Hayek

http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/hayek.htm

He inspired Milton Friedman and the Chicago school

This program is an excellent primer on some of the economic forces moving the world today

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/lo/index.html

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 11-04-2005 at 04:30

	11-04-2005 04:28									#74
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	11-04-2005 04:39									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse forget about Marx If you want to know who was the most influential economic thinker of our time look at this guy, Friedrich Hayek http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/hayek.htm

If you want to know what happens when you don't have stimulus for a modern economy look at Germany.

	11-04-2005 05:13									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Actually, we're assuming that things will keep changing, according to you

I'm not saying things will stop changing, just that the rate of change will diminish to a point that will cause a crisis.

	11-04-2005 05:21									#77
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So you're the one making the claim...

	11-04-2005 05:23									#78
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Marx was a very good sociologist but a terrible economist and dreadful political theorist.

There's no escaping the fact that the political and economic movements his writings helped spawn were all a dismal failure.

	11-04-2005 05:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So you're the one making the claim...

Yeah, I claim that it's silly to assume that the rate of change will increase or stay the same forever.

	11-04-2005 05:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Marx was a very good sociologist but a terrible economist and dreadful political theorist.

And the Austrians are better?

	11-04-2005 05:53									#81
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What do Austrians have to do with anything?

	11-04-2005 05:54									#82
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Say what you like about Marx's philosophy, but I think historical materialism is one of the best models of historical change we have. Simply describing historical change in terms of changes in ideas ignore why and how new ideas gain force and momentum in society. Scientific ideas may have their exceptions... but political ideas fit into this schema perfectly.
To assert, like postmodernists, that culture is the driving force ignores the fact that we can only ever have the culture that we can afford to produce. Culture seems ubiquitous now because it has been seamlessly integrated into the system of production. Marx in fact predicted something resembling postmodernity, in that he warned that capitalism would transform all social relations and come to mediate them... by breaking down all barriers to exchange (even morality) and melting all that is solid into air.

quote: Gross oversimplification of society into "classes" so the math of analysis is much easier. However, this causes the model to be faulty and ignores many 2nd order and 3rd order terms that are necessary to correctly model dynamic environments

Name these terms and we'll examine them, shall we? I agree that Marx's breakdown of classes and his predictions for them have not eventuated, but I think his definition of what constitutes a class has not changed.

	11-04-2005 06:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What do Austrians have to do with anything?

Austrian School economists have their own theory of the business cycle.

	11-04-2005 06:41									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse forget about Marx If you want to know who was the most influential economic thinker of our time look at this guy, Friedrich Hayek http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/hayek.htm He inspired Milton Friedman and the Chicago school This program is an excellent primer on some of the economic forces moving the world today http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/lo/index.html

Yup yup. Excellent series, by the way. Done by Daniel Yergin, whose history of oil is a powerful book.

	11-04-2005 06:59									#85
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I haven't read the oil book - but I think I might now with all the dire predictions of what is going to happen to supply over the next 10-20 years.

	11-04-2005 07:11									#86
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Not sure whether somebody who is not deep in this stuff otherwise might enjoy the book. YMMV.

	11-04-2005 07:24									#87
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Here's a snippet to tide you over...

quote: Eventually prices will come down. ''Every boom sows the seeds for the next bust," said Daniel Yergin, chairman of Cambridge Energy Research Associates, a consulting firm.

http://www.cera.com/home/

	11-04-2005 11:13									#88
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I think that Marx is more relevant now than ever. I find it funny that people would treat him the same way as the founder of a religion. After all, most contemporary economists like Smith, but don't buy everything he said.

The right hate Marx because he was one of the first people to see through the elaborate cultural constructions that exist to retrospectively justify capitalism. In that respect he's more relevant than ever. It's about time a new generation of thinkers attempted to brush up Marxism for the times.

I think that Marx will undergo a renaissance in the next few years. The climate is certainly right for it - reading the communist manifesto now, I realize that it is much more accurate now than it was 20 years ago when I first read it, and the idea of machines eliminating the need for human labour is now more credible than ever.

	11-04-2005 11:16									#89
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Hayek is funny. I tried to read some once. I found him intellectually dull. He's like Ayn Rand - people say he is some sort of genius because he provides some sort of theoretical justification for their desire to plunder the human race.

In fact, he's just a cretin.

Actually, apart from Aristotle (and his inclusion is debatable), it's hard to find a right wing theorist who isn't a simpleton, a fraud or a retard.

	11-04-2005 11:29									#90
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tee hee