11-04-2005 23:17									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Odin DOH! I was meaning ALL the social programs, not just for the poor, my bad.

As much as you want to blame Reagan it has been natural changes in the economy which has led to the shrinking of the middle class in relation to the poor. The same jobs just don't pay as well, because of supply and demand.

	11-04-2005 23:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'd argue that capitalism isn't as flexible as you'd like to believe. I'd also argue that once Stalinism gripped the throat of communism, we lost what flexibility we had. Pre-Stalin, the USSR was exceedingly flexible. Castro's Cuba is extremely flexible. The Sandanistas were among the most flexible.

Its going to be a circular arguement. 1st generation communism = flexibility to adapt to teh will of the masses. (or damn well should be if they are gathering a base of support to pull off a revolution)

If pre-Stalin, the revolutionary spirit was alive and well and was the vehicle of change this would/could explain/rationalize what you are espousing. Once the first generation is past and the roots of revolution are lost what then?

You say the lack of flexibility was becasue of teh west's attacks on communism in general and the resulting need for authoritarian rule, I say the downfall resulted from the inevitable lack of fervor of those same masses/leaders.

	11-04-2005 23:28									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If you speak to 3rd world nations there are many other factors as you well know that impede their growth. Lack of rule of law, corruption,lack of observance of property rights including human rights, imperialist tampering, political instability in the form of military juntas etc.

You have to take the good with the bad, or I can toss out most of the Marxist experience on the basis of the Stalinist "coup."

	12-04-2005 00:06									#124
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You have to take the good with the bad, or I can toss out most of the Marxist experience on the basis of the Stalinist "coup."

No teh bad I described were reasons why teh move from nonindustrialized to industrialized never happenned (and moreover are symptomatic of lack of national will) hence no hockey stick.

If you try to infer that is a symptom of capitalism I would say your wrong. Conversely if you try to infer communism successful because it was able to enable industrialization I again would say it is wrong. (Moreso it was because it reflected a national will to do so as evidenced by a large enough contingent to pull off a revolution). Without that national will communism or capitalism is doomed to fail.


Another words it has less to do with teh dogmas of the two societal systems as much as the energetic passions of the people/governement at large to make the change possible.

	12-04-2005 00:14									#125
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It's not national will that failed those countries. It's the fact that their role within the world capitalist economy didn't allow for them to make the necessary choices to move to industrial society. Those states that were forced to adapt their economies to the dictates of colonialism (and then neo-colonialism via the IMF and World Bank) were unable to raise enough capital to industrialize. Those states that told the IMF/WB to shove it, both captialist and communist, were able to industrialize. Argentina and Brazil had the will. They just got sandbagged.

	12-04-2005 01:23									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You say the lack of flexibility was becasue of teh west's attacks on communism in general and the resulting need for authoritarian rule, I say the downfall resulted from the inevitable lack of fervor of those same masses/leaders.

You have to realize that the Russian people really wanted political freedom and economic justice. Most of them realize that communism really wasn't the problem.

	12-04-2005 01:39									#127
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Consider that the first bourgeois governments in England and France (not to mention the Italian city states) both fell and in both cases it was a long time before capitalism was able to assert itself again. Only the Dutch managed to hold on, and they were built on the backs of a slave empire and Indonesian genocide. In other words, we may have lost this round, but there will be another, and another. Eventually, we will win and stay victorious.

If you refering (as I think you are) to the Cromwell's Revolution and the French Revolution, both were derailed mostly for political reasons, not economic, as the leaders of the movements were seem to be too autocratic once in power. The problems with Soviet Russia was one of economics, where in the 80s they actually had negative economic growth during the decade and was slowly dying.

Oh, and as for the there will be another and another and another round and we'll win in the end... that's the religiousity I'm talking about

	12-04-2005 01:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You have to realize that the Russian people really wanted political freedom and economic justice. Most of them realize that communism really wasn't the problem.

Funny I thought they were enticed by the thought of consumerism and having the creature comforts or even basic necessities of their western civilization counterparts. Even if political freedom were teh underlying reason, one must question why dissent is so harshly punished if not for reasons of maintaining the status quo because no other compelling reason holds peoples passions as they once upon a time did.

	12-04-2005 02:02									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Funny I thought they were enticed by the thought of consumerism and having the creature comforts or even basic necessities of their western civilization counterparts.

Consumerism I doubt, but basic necessities sure. That's what I mean by economic justice. They didn't have their basic needs met because they didn't have the political power to do make sure that those needs where met, not because of communism. You don't actually believe that it's impossible to produce enough blue jeans for everyone in a communist system do you?

quote: Even if political freedom were teh underlying reason, one must question why dissent is so harshly punished if not for reasons of maintaining the status quo because no other compelling reason holds peoples passions as they once upon a time did.

People got tired of waiting in line for TP for sure. Why they didn't have enough TP was not because of communism. There we other reasons for that.

	12-04-2005 02:03									#130
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It had much to do with centralized production wherein the governement had different priorities of teh masses. Furher teh voice of teh people via teh communist party was muted to a faint whisper.

	12-04-2005 02:05									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe It had much to do with centralized production wherein the governement had different priorities of teh masses. Furher teh voice of teh people via teh communist party was muted to a faint whisper.

Exactly. In other words it was a political problem, not an economic one.

	12-04-2005 02:06									#132
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Inextricably tied in the form of communism after a number of generations.

	12-04-2005 02:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Inextricably tied in the form of communism after a number of generations.

If it were tied to communism then they wouldn't still have problems with economic injustice.

	12-04-2005 02:13									#134
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Ogie:

Just curious if you're making a conscious effort to spell it "teh" every time. You've been remarkably consistent so far.

	12-04-2005 02:14									#135
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quote: they didn't have the political power to do make sure that those needs where met

If they wanted political power, though agreed with the economic system, they would have let Gorbachev continue after putting down the attempted coup by the hardliners in 1991. That was Gorbachev's goal to create a democratic communism.

	12-04-2005 02:18									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Ogie: Just curious if you're making a conscious effort to spell it "teh" every time. You've been remarkably consistent so far.

Nope just lazy.

Why does it bother you?

Is so I'll make it a point to stop teh bad spelling.

	12-04-2005 02:25									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: they didn't have the political power to do make sure that those needs where met If they wanted political power, though agreed with the economic system, they would have let Gorbachev continue after putting down the attempted coup by the hardliners in 1991. That was Gorbachev's goal to create a democratic communism.

But the driving force of privatization was the class that was exploiting the communism system. The change in the economic system allowed them to still exploit the same people. Although I agree that a lot of people got swept up in the spirit of change and were fooled by the promises of privatization.

	12-04-2005 02:43									#138
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That's ridiculous. Why would the people who were in charge and were 'exploiting the communism system' want change at all? It threatens their place.

	12-04-2005 02:54									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's ridiculous. Why would the people who were in charge and were 'exploiting the communism system' want change at all? It threatens their place.

Change was inevitable. They wanted it to be in their favor.

	12-04-2005 03:04									#140
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Change may be inevitable, but a certain mode of change is not, no matter what fancy dialecticals write.

	12-04-2005 04:21									#141
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quote: The problems with Soviet Russia was one of economics, where in the 80s they actually had negative economic growth during the decade and was slowly dying

The Soviet Union was in reasonable shape going in to the 1980s. I don't think that economics had as much to do with the end of "communism" as people think.

	12-04-2005 06:26									#142
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Capitalism doesn't always lead to rational economics either. Australia is a perfect example.

In our free market, we export all our industrial raw materials (of which we have a lion's share) and we produce domestically what is clearly unsustainable and environmentally degrading (agricultural produce). We have some of the largest reserves of coal, iron ore, aluminium, uranium, gold, titanium etc etc in the world, and yet we don't have a powerful industrial sector. We have the poorest soils in the world, we're the driest continent in the world, and we have the most erratic and inclement weather conditions in the world, and yet we have a powerful agricultural sector??!!
Australia is essentially a 1st world country sitting on a 3rd world economy. It's unsustainable, and it's all thanks to capitalism.
Here's an example: we sell off our timber, from some of the finest forests in Australia, to Japan. As a landmass, we have one of the lowest levels of forest coverage in the world... and we're selling our forests to Japan, who, as far as 1st world countries go, has the highest forest coverage, a coverage that's actually growing!!! And yet, even though timber is such a scarce resource in Australia, we sell it off as cheap as chips!
If there's any economy that needs to be centrally planned it's Australia. We have the economic base with which to create a powerful industrial state.... and we could easily buy our food from a country that has the right environment to support intensive agriculture. Otherwise we're ****ed.

	12-04-2005 06:39									#143
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Capitalism is rational if you want to plunder the earth to benefit a few people to the exclusion of everyone else.

	12-04-2005 06:44									#144
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well we're certainly plundering the earth in Australia. We've managed to severely endanger our environment in 200 years doing what has been sustainable in Europe for thousands of years.... and yet we still do it.

	12-04-2005 09:07									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The Soviet Union was in reasonable shape going in to the 1980s. I don't think that economics had as much to do with the end of "communism" as people think.

I do . The Soviet command economy started to fail in the 70's. Agriculture in fact never recovered from collectivisation in the 1930's. The information revolution, which was based on free exchange of ideas and decentralised networks, was the final nail in the coffin. Noone could control that.

Its no accident that the Chinese communists saw the writing on the wall and introduced market economy reforms. The Soviet party under Gorbachev tried to do similar through glasnost and perestroika but they lost control of the political process. The Chinese communists very nearly lost it too - until the 1989 Tiananmen massacre, which turned things around for them and changed the course of history.

	12-04-2005 12:31									#146
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Apart from anything else, the Soviet life expectancy was going down.

	12-04-2005 12:59									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Economic growth in capitalist systems is ever sustainable?

It's grown from the dawn of history until today, so the answer is maybe.

	12-04-2005 13:09									#148
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Re: the capacity for change in capitalist & communist systems

I assume you guys are talking about economic systems even though the conversation seems to have spilled over half of the time into political systems. Can someone give me a short definition of what constitutes a capitalist economic system and what constitutes a communist economic system (and preferably a real world example of each) so we can acertain whether we are in fact having a meaningful discussion (and not simply a ritual combat with symbols)?

	12-04-2005 17:32									#149
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quote: It's grown from the dawn of history until today, so the answer is maybe

Why don't you tell us what a capitalist economy is... given that you seem to already have a definition of one... a very broad and problematic one too it seems...

	12-04-2005 20:16									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander It's grown from the dawn of history until today, so the answer is maybe.

Ever heard of recessions?