12-04-2005 03:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They don't need substantive due process for the right to privacy, etc. They can simply rely on the 9th Amendment. And in order to get rid of right to privacy, etc, you'd have to abolish the 9th Amendment and say the rights in the Constitution are exclusive federal rights.

Maybe. However the original cases admit the origin of the doctrine is "substantive due process."

	12-04-2005 23:28									#62
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Just a point on liberal vs conservative and party affiliation: We seem to make distinctions between economic liberal and social liberal -- at least from the Republican Party point of view. The thing that unites the Republican Party is economic conservatism -- an emphasis on the private sector, individualism and having a general pro-business emphasis. The party has two wings on the social issues. The religious wing are social conservatives. But there are many who are social liberals, i.e., are in favor of abortion (but maybe not to the extend of the Democrat Party), affirmative action, etc.

Democrats seem united on economic issues as well. But more than anything else, they have a hard litmus test on the social issues in order to be supported by the party apparatus as a candidate or court nominee. As a result, economic liberals, but social conservatives, such as Joe Lieberman, are having a hard time staying loyal to the party.

	12-04-2005 23:31									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Democrats seem united on economic issues as well. But more than anything else, they have a hard litmus test on the social issues in order to be supported by the party apparatus as a candidate or court nominee. As a result, economic liberals, but social conservatives, such as Joe Lieberman, are having a hard time staying loyal to the party.

That is why we need a multi-party system and PR.

	12-04-2005 23:43									#64
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quote: But there are many who are social liberals, i.e., are in favor of abortion (but maybe not to the extend of the Democrat Party), affirmative action, etc. Democrats seem united on economic issues as well. But more than anything else, they have a hard litmus test on the social issues in order to be supported by the party apparatus as a candidate or court nominee. As a result, economic liberals, but social conservatives, such as Joe Lieberman, are having a hard time staying loyal to the party.

Ned, Ned, Ned... you look at things with right-winged glasses.

Social conservatives having a hard time staying in the Dems, but social liberals not having a hard time staying in the Reps? Ask people like Senator Chaffee, Senator Spector or many other Congressmen who had to stave off brutal, brutal challenges in the primaries because they weren't 'conservative' enough

	13-04-2005 00:07									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Odin That is why we need a multi-party system and PR.

PR simply increases the power of the parties to force its membership to toe the line. If they don't, then they'll be relegated to a low spot on the party list.

At least as it stands now each member runs by himself. He is only responsible for gaining the plurality in his riding.

	13-04-2005 00:56									#66
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This is just DeLay's attempt to stay out of jail, he's hoping that he can get rid of any judges that might want to convict him.

quote: Originally posted by Whoha You should be more afraid of the likes of Bush, hes made the calculation that the judges are going to be the sole authority, and on that assumption is attempting to pack the judiciary with as many of his people as possible.

Anybody notice that Bush's approval is 45%? He'll add judges, but while in office things will continue to deteriorate, like rising gas prices. When he's out, more crimes will continue to surface, and the cons will be so unpopular, it will be easy for Congress to expand the court.

	13-04-2005 02:59									#67
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Yet another chilling development. Sometimes I wonder if can ever live in my home country again.

By the time I want to return, being gay or atheist will be illegal.

	13-04-2005 04:46									#68
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To hear some Republicans say it poor Tom Delay is just the victim of a vast left wing conspiracy against him and only a "political hack" would even consider investigating the charges of bribery and deliberately breaking federal political action funding laws.

Last edited by Oerdin on 13-04-2005 at 05:37

	13-04-2005 04:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse PR simply increases the power of the parties to force its membership to toe the line. If they don't, then they'll be relegated to a low spot on the party list.

This would be a good thing. Then people could be sure of what they are voting for.

	13-04-2005 04:54									#70
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quote: PR simply increases the power of the parties to force its membership to toe the line. If they don't, then they'll be relegated to a low spot on the party list.

Not if you do it right. We have mixed member PR so that half the seats are chosen in the traditional manner and the lists go to make up the proportions.

It's an excellent system with one great virtue: political parties can die under it.

The great evil of modern politics is the 2 main parties BSing because they know no-one has an alternative. PR allows you to choose from 2 or 3 parties that share your views, so you almost always have an alternative.. and they know it.

	13-04-2005 05:21									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But there are many who are social liberals, i.e., are in favor of abortion (but maybe not to the extend of the Democrat Party), affirmative action, etc. Democrats seem united on economic issues as well. But more than anything else, they have a hard litmus test on the social issues in order to be supported by the party apparatus as a candidate or court nominee. As a result, economic liberals, but social conservatives, such as Joe Lieberman, are having a hard time staying loyal to the party. Ned, Ned, Ned... you look at things with right-winged glasses. Social conservatives having a hard time staying in the Dems, but social liberals not having a hard time staying in the Reps? Ask people like Senator Chaffee, Senator Spector or many other Congressmen who had to stave off brutal, brutal challenges in the primaries because they weren't 'conservative' enough

Irman, you have a point. But also consider that Bush paraded Giuliani and Schwarzennegger at his convention. Both are social liberals.

Name one social conservative who spoke at the Dem convention?

	13-04-2005 05:35									#72
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quote: Name one social conservative who spoke at the Dem convention?

Um.. Joe Libermann. You even brought him up in your last post. Libermann spoke on the 4th day (the one where Kerry was announced as candidate. John Breaux, Senator from Louisana (and someone Bush was trying to court from the Dems to vote with him) spoke on that day as well.

http://www.dems2004.org/site/pp.asp...2LaPYG&b=130848

And anyone can 'parade' people at your convention. The question is what do you do when they are under attack by ultra conservative candidates. Most moderate Republicans are left on an island when attacked for not being true Republicans in their primaries. It's very sad.

	13-04-2005 06:12									#73
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Well, Imran, what do you make of Hillary's move to the center? She is making many socially conservative noises these days.

	13-04-2005 06:14									#74
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And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, or better, libertarian, would like to see some moderation in the Republican Party in this regard. It is a problem, though, as social conservatives are a critical part of what makes the Republican Party the majority party today.

	13-04-2005 06:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This would be a good thing. Then people could be sure of what they are voting for.

Pardon me if I'd rather have a real politician representing me instead of a party hack.

	13-04-2005 07:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, or better, libertarian, would like to see some moderation in the Republican Party in this regard. It is a problem, though, as social conservatives are a critical part of what makes the Republican Party the majority party today.

I'm having a harder and harder time understanding why libertarian types put up with the Republicans. The Republicans are increasingly rallying around Social Conservatism and have trumped the Democrats in regards to reckless government spending.

	13-04-2005 07:09									#77
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"And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, "



What is this, comedy hour?

And KH, would you be in favour of a 'Pure Parliamentary' system, with no parties just independants who rep their ridings?

Heaven forfend, people would actually have to research very slightly some of the candidates positions.

	13-04-2005 07:13									#78
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Yet another chilling development. Sometimes I wonder if can ever live in my home country again.

So sound and fury signifying basically nothing scares you but living in a dictatorship in East Asia doesn't terrify you at all?

	13-04-2005 07:16									#79
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quote: I'm having a harder and harder time understanding why libertarian types put up with the Republicans. The Republicans are increasingly rallying around Social Conservatism and have trumped the Democrats in regards to reckless government spending.

It's not that hard to understand. The Republicans are viewed as trustworthy on national security issues while the Democrats are not...

	13-04-2005 07:17									#80
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I wouldn't consider Lieberman a social conservative. I would put him down as a moderate.

I would have voted for Lieberman.

	13-04-2005 07:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, or better, libertarian,

	13-04-2005 07:18									#82
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quote: I would have voted for Lieberman.

Me too.

	13-04-2005 07:38									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, " What is this, comedy hour? And KH, would you be in favour of a 'Pure Parliamentary' system, with no parties just independants who rep their ridings? Heaven forfend, people would actually have to research very slightly some of the candidates positions.

I hate political parties...


JM

	13-04-2005 08:00									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I would have voted for Lieberman.

As a proud gamer, I wouldn't have even been able to hold my nose long enough to do so.

	13-04-2005 08:06									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc As a proud gamer, I wouldn't have even been able to hold my nose long enough to do so.

Same here. Could you imagine him as President when Doom IV comes out?

	13-04-2005 11:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Imran, what do you make of Hillary's move to the center? She is making many socially conservative noises these days.

I'm not Imran, but I'd say she's off and running for 2008. Hillary's about as social conservative as Bush was the "environmental President."

	13-04-2005 12:24									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'm having a harder and harder time understanding why libertarian types put up with the Republicans. The Republicans are increasingly rallying around Social Conservatism and have trumped the Democrats in regards to reckless government spending. It's not that hard to understand. The Republicans are viewed as trustworthy on national security issues while the Democrats are not...

Since when were libertarians in favour of an interventionist foreign policy

	13-04-2005 12:27									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "And, BTW, I, as a social liberal, " What is this, comedy hour? And KH, would you be in favour of a 'Pure Parliamentary' system, with no parties just independants who rep their ridings? Heaven forfend, people would actually have to research very slightly some of the candidates positions.

Party affiliation is, for me, a question of right to assembly.

If people want to form a party and run on a party platform using shared resources then I have no problem with that. I wish more people would give independents a chance, though.

	13-04-2005 12:55									#89
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quote: Since when were libertarians in favour of an interventionist foreign policy

I was talking about "libertarians", not "Libertarians". The former are much more sensible about foreign policy than the latter...

	15-04-2005 09:27									#90
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Proportional Representation?

The UK and the US are now alone in the world to have not adopted it.

If you look at the Italian system, it would never logically be adopted by anyone.
If you look at Germany, after WWII the UK set up their system, (and the Danish system is similar to it). If it was good enough for Germans in 1949, why is it still not good enough for Britain in 2005?

I speculate that once a party gets into power, they like it too much. The current system ignores 20% of the population that always votes Liberal (since WWII), they will never be represented. That is wrong.

Within PR, the list system does allow for a local MP, so that connection to your area is unbroken.

It also means that each vote really counts.

Toby