15-04-2005 18:09									#91
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libertarians put up with the social conservatives because the social conservatives get the working class Joe to vote Republican.

	05-05-2005 11:25									#92
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Odin,

I'm working class, my mum middle class, politics in the the UK (at least) isn't based upon class anymore, but both are Labour party supporters.

However, my mum must vote for the Liberals (tactical voting) in her ward in order to keep out the Conservatives, as 20,001 votes will beat 20,000 votes.

My area is Labour and always has been; thankgod I support the party that will win the seat (at about midnight tonight), I'd be a very frustratated Tory(Republican) or Liberal otherwise, but our system, encourages this totalitarian type of democracy.

Drawing lines on a map, and then asking people to vote within this boundary isn't going to encourage reluctant voters if the result is always the same.

I want real representation of the people, Proportionial Representation (PR) offers that, both the UK and US systems are out of date and the rest of Europe must laugh at us, if they even take an interest watching our politicians at the hustings.

Toby

	05-05-2005 11:29									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Hmmm, it seems that traditional conservative blatherings about the evils of an independent judiciary are taking a a turn for the worse: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...8-2005Apr8.html I don't know about you, but it gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling when conversatives quote Stalin with approval....

these statements are real

	05-05-2005 14:10									#94
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Toby,
Is the British electoral system based on preferences, like the Australian one is?

	05-05-2005 18:54									#95
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On a national level, our system results in a two-party system and forces a presidential candidate toward the center in order to win elections. For life in me, I cannot understand how this is a bad system and why we should take lectures from people who do not have an independent executive.

	05-05-2005 19:06									#96
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For the past 25 years, Ned, it's been forcing the whole system to the right not the center. Today's Democrats are to the right of Richard Nixon.

	05-05-2005 19:27									#97
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And Bush is to the left of FDR.

	05-05-2005 19:36									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned And Bush is to the left of FDR.

Uh, no.

	05-05-2005 19:48									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Uh, no.

Quite, true though.

	05-05-2005 19:56									#100
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No, not really. Liberals dont just spend money, they spend on specific areas. Bush's massive deficit spending isn't going to areas like welfare, rebuilding roads, etc. It's going to the military and (mostly) tax cuts for the wealthy. These are traditionally conservative areas. The only places he gets to the left of his party is on Education, which is underfunded, and Medicare, which is also underfunded.

	05-05-2005 20:06									#101
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, not really. Liberals dont just spend money, they spend on specific areas. Bush's massive deficit spending isn't going to areas like welfare, rebuilding roads, etc. It's going to the military and (mostly) tax cuts for the wealthy. These are traditionally conservative areas. The only places he gets to the left of his party is on Education, which is underfunded, and Medicare, which is also underfunded.

Not true, Che. The spending increase on social programs has been the greatest in American history not only in total dollars, but in percentages of the budget.

	05-05-2005 20:32									#102
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Take the Drug program from Medicare and redo that calculation.

	05-05-2005 20:35									#103
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Che, facts are facts.

You must know that the conservative right is VERY unhappy with GWB.

	05-05-2005 20:37									#104
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Yes, I do know that. But when you take the $600 billion drug presectiption prgram outn of the calculation, Bush no longer seems like this great liberal. Frankly, I don't believe that the program was intended to do anything more than bankrupt Medicare, since it's underfunded.

	05-05-2005 20:44									#105
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Well, based on evidence, "compassionate conservatism" appears to be a form of liberalism and is designed to get Bush the Republican nomination by using different words to fool the right wing.

	05-05-2005 20:55									#106
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Zevico,

Nope. If a member gets a single vote more, they are elected- Nationally Thather in her last term got about 47% of those that voted, I think my Party got about 43% at the last election, but won.
In Denmark it is illegial to not vote- you get paid for a day away, can rip the paper up legially, but you must vote. (You are fined if you refuse to even rip up the paper)

Democracy in Europe arrived at a high price, the Kiwi's actually did something in voting after the Idiot war (WWI), Ironic the Russians saved the day with 26 million dead, to allow us lot in Europe finally have a voice after WWII-even the USA was forced into it once both Hitler and Japan had declared war on them.

Democracy isn't a special right, It should be like buying a loaf of bread from a bakers- expected, as he expects your money.

After the first war Britain got a sort of democracy, by the end of the Second, Britain had fought a 6 year war, was bankrupt to the US and exhausted.

All political parties knew they must offer the 4 million returning serviceman something extra, other than replacing 2 million bombed homes- they did.

We got the National Health Service,: After surviving a six year war you now knew that you wouldn't die at home because you lacked a penny to pay the doctors' fee- that's democracy.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 12-05-2005 at 12:22