10-04-2005 03:04									#1
	AU 602: FFA1 tracker Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

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	10-04-2005 03:58									#2
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Thanks T

my eddress: jwala at fastmail daht fm

I don't have a regular work schedule and should usually be available from ~18:00 to 09:00 GMT daily.

	10-04-2005 04:47									#3
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	10-04-2005 04:55									#4
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What the hell...

chris (TA] jackos (TOD] f2s (TOD] com

What rules are we following? Iron civers (ettiquette, at least?)

	10-04-2005 11:46									#5
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	10-04-2005 12:00									#6
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I don't play by iron civer rules, generally. They are too strong for most games in their limitation of diplomacy, particularly for a game intended to show off the use of diplomacy, not the lack thereof. I'd rather play by common sense pbem rules (no obviously abusive actions, unlimited communication after contact).

	10-04-2005 12:01									#7
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oh, snoopy369 yahoo if you didn't know that already, but i play with all of you already except aeson ... oh wait, that's who sends me the save

	10-04-2005 14:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I don't play by iron civer rules, generally. They are too strong for most games in their limitation of diplomacy, particularly for a game intended to show off the use of diplomacy, not the lack thereof. I'd rather play by common sense pbem rules (no obviously abusive actions, unlimited communication after contact).

Since we have players from at least three distinctly different gaming backgrounds here, I don't expect common sense to be exactly mutual. One of the basic points of making up the Iron Civer Code (or any exploit list) is so that people used to playing by different standards can agree on some ground rules up front and refer back to them when disputes arise. If we don't agree to Iron Civer Warrior Code, I'd like to at least use something from CFC or Beta's thread as a definitive list.

If the optional blue text is thrown out of the IC Code, the only considerable limit on diplomacy is prohibiting allies from sharing battleplans without an F4 alliance declared. This is done to prevent players from circumventing the war happiness stuff (a pretty clear exploit IMO).

With the focus on diplomacy, I'd expect we'd want a more structured approach with the frequent rules discrepencies outlined in advance, not pushed off into a corner while we cross our fingers and promise to keep warm fuzzy attitudes toward each other...

	10-04-2005 14:47									#9
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What do we want to do about combat reporting? Passive (when requested only), active (mandatory), or none at all? These are covered in more detail in the IC Warrior Code also, if anyone wants to refer to that.

Active (level2) seems to be the most popular in substantial games...

	10-04-2005 19:28									#10
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I'd pick the one where you have to report the outcome of a battle (including HP of all units, before and after), and bombardment.

Last edited by Krill on 10-04-2005 at 19:39

	10-04-2005 19:36									#11
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quote: 1-2 Players shall not exchange in-game information until they are represented on each other's foreign advisor's screen. They shall not exchange graphic map information before both have knowledge of Navigation. Players shall not coordinate military action unless an alliance is formally declared in the foreign advisor's screen. Players shall not make Mutual Protection Pacts or Trade Embargoes unless they are declared in the foreign advisor's screen. a) In diplomacy without an embassy between the Tribes, a player may only offer technology already known by their Tribe. They may not offer or ask for unknown techs. b) Players shall not make reference to specific distances or directions until both have knowledge of Map Making.

That is the gist of the ettiquette...

	10-04-2005 23:41									#12
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	11-04-2005 00:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Krill quote: a) In diplomacy without an embassy between the Tribes, a player may only offer technology already known by their Tribe. They may not offer or ask for unknown techs. b) Players shall not make reference to specific distances or directions until both have knowledge of Map Making. That is the gist of the ettiquette...

I'd suggest dropping those last 4 lines (a+b) with a group unfamilliar with the Code in general.

Anyone else care to comment on exploits and ettiquette up front?

	11-04-2005 09:16									#14
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Combat reporting as Krill describes (level 2a i think?) is fine and preferred. I don't prefer to have much else though; I think that while IC is intending to ask people to use in-game methods to play, this game is mostly out of game methodology.

I'd rather have no limits on out of game contact at all once you meet. Yes this makes embassies nearly worthless - so what. The point of this game is diplomacy - ie, getting someone to ally with you to accomplish a goal, etc.

I suppose i don't object in principle to parts of the etiquette; however, the Navigation limit I absolutely object to, that's too late for any PBEM game (as is generally the consensus from what I can tell). I just don't see why the rest (other than "represented on the F4 screen", which I admit is a good idea) is necessary.

	11-04-2005 09:35									#15
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	11-04-2005 10:17									#16
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	11-04-2005 12:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I don't prefer to have much else though; I think that while IC is intending to ask people to use in-game methods to play, this game is mostly out of game methodology.

I don't see an either/or situation here. 'Silent' games are about in-game methods only. My goal with the IC Warrior Code is to keep out-of-game methodology from conflicting with the in-game methods. The Warrior Code is about making everyone aware of (as few as possible) simple ground rules, and letting out-of-game diplomacy go wherever the players would like from there.

quote: I'd rather have no limits on out of game contact at all once you meet. Yes this makes embassies nearly worthless - so what. The point of this game is diplomacy - ie, getting someone to ally with you to accomplish a goal, etc. I suppose i don't object in principle to parts of the etiquette; however, the Navigation limit I absolutely object to, that's too late for any PBEM game (as is generally the consensus from what I can tell). I just don't see why the rest (other than "represented on the F4 screen", which I admit is a good idea) is necessary.

First off, I hope you can see some irony in the phrase I bolded.

As far as the navigation point goes, if you are refering to idea that graphical map informatin should not be exchanged until Navigation is attained, I don't know what else to say. Firaxis made a point of changing this for Conquests, and trading screen shots is irrefutably an exploit of stock rules. If you have a number of good players in a game who care about it, it isn't much of a stretch to carry a PBEM into the late Middle Ages, where maps come into play in due course. (A Civ guru once pointed out to me how exchanging map information early basically promotes backstabbing in PBEM- an unpleasant event that doesn't exactly need any encouragement.)

I think the rest of the limits you mention are all contained in the optional (blue- everything in the quote I took from Krill) text, which I've stated my own preference for not using. While I think these improve PBEM diplomacy much like the AUMod improves single player games, we've already decided to stick with stock for these games. I don't see anything else in the Code as deviating from a 'normal' game though- just clarifying common ways the game can be exploited in PBEM when players don't pay attention, or worse- wish to gain undue advantage...

	11-04-2005 12:39									#18
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For obligatory reporting this is how I have it broken down:

quote: Level 2> Active A player making any attack must indicate to the defender that it has taken place and provide a brief summary of units involved, along with damage taken. Level 3> Intensive A player making any attack must indicate to the defender that it has taken palce and provide a detailed account of each unit's location and resulting damage status.

I'm fine with any level, just so long as everyone is aware of it in advance.

	11-04-2005 15:58									#19
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3950 to Krill

	11-04-2005 16:51									#20
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not recieved yet. Could you post the save please?

	12-04-2005 15:47									#21
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resent and here is the post

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	12-04-2005 21:55									#22
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Got the save this time around. Save to Swissy.

Thanks PR

	14-04-2005 04:00									#23
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Uploading the save for Swissy, and resending.

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	14-04-2005 15:38									#24
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Whats the best why to take notes for reporting?

Do you plan that far in advance to have the units already listed with HP ?

Then to start, do battle, state starting HP, continue battle, state ending HP?

When notifying of an attack, this offline by e mail or PM?


Yes, I am a novice ...hate me now and/or later

	14-04-2005 15:59									#25
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Below are some examples I was able to find.

What do you think


Jackson bombed, Stock Exchange destroyed
- Jackson bombed, Citizens killed (17)
- Jackson bombed, Barracks destroyed
- Jackson bombed, Citizens killed (16)
- Jackson bombed, Kittens killed (failed)
- Jackson bombed, Temple destroyed
- Jackson bombed, Infantry 2/4
- Jackson bombed, Kittens killed (failed)
- Jackson bombed, Kittens killed (failed)
- Jackson bombed, Marketplace destroyed
- Jackson bombed, Kittens killed (failed)
- IR Iron Lady sunk. DD ¾
__________________________________________________
______________________
11) 4/4 Lego bomber bombs a 3/4 GS DD at Abilene 4411; misses
12) 4/4 Lego bomber bombs a 3/4 GS DD at Abilene 4411; DD down to 1/4
13) 4/4 Lego DD attacks a 4/4 GS transport at Abilene 4411; wins (3/4), promoted to elite (4/5)
14) 4/4 Lego DD attacks a 4/4 GS transport at Abilene 4411; wins (2/4)
15) 4/4 Lego DD attacks a 4/4 GS transport at Abilene 4411; wins (3/4), promoted to elite (4/5)
16) 3/3 Lego DD attacks the 1/4 GS DD at Abilene 4411; loses, GS DD promoted to 2/5
17) 3/3 Lego DD attacks the 2/5 GS DD at Abilene 4411; wins (1/3)

Total:
15 attacks, 14 won, 1 lost, 5 promotions.
2 bombing runs, 1 successful (2hp off a DD).
We lost 1 DD, GS lost 9 DDs and 5 transports.

	14-04-2005 21:56									#26
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There isn't a real standard established for Combat Reporting. Attackers should do what they think best and defenders should ask for more information if they don't see what they need for their own purposes. Chances are there will be a few skirmishes to practise up on before the spit really hits the fan. CRs have been slow to refine because the info usually just passes by email between players.

Technically, you shouldn't post anything in the tracker until you've met all of the other players. Its generally good strategy to send them by email anyway, rather than let everyone know how your forces are being applied.

In the examples, the dashes on top and the numbers below would be level 3 reporting. The summary at the end I think would be good enough for level 1 or 2. [well, actually the summary should also include at least a list of all the units that attacked]

Last edited by Rommel2D on 14-04-2005 at 22:42

	16-04-2005 09:51									#27
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au602, 3900bc, to Aeson

my email is swissyciv AT gmail DOT com

I thought I PMed that to Krill a couple weeks ago

	16-04-2005 12:06									#28
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au602, 3900bc, to snoopy369

	17-04-2005 10:07									#29
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Would anyone care to pop into Other Games and let snoopy know the turn is waiting?

	19-04-2005 21:48									#30
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Enough hangman, how about playing Civ?
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