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Paddy the Scot
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Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:17
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Paddy says:
hello Horde
Ljube says:
hello
Plato says:
Greetings Khan!
Plato says:
The drums of war beat loudly
Paddy says:
indeed they be
Paddy says:
and plans are developing
Ljube says:
I'm very unhappy at the settlement of the border issue with the so called "allies"
Paddy says:
that is sad
why so unhappy Ljube
Ljube says:
because the border we proposed is moved two tiles to the west
Ljube says:
what do we get in return?
Paddy says:
have you had the chance to read the chat in the Euphorica thread yet old chap
Ljube says:
just looked at the picture and felt sick
Paddy says:
we got a settler in a hut that became Blood view many turns ago
Paddy says:
we were already leading the negotiation when we sent the pic
Paddy says:
two tiles, when they are two tiles from the coast
and we have room to move
Ljube says:
according to this we can't build more cities on that river
Ljube says:
sad
Paddy says:
not the end of the world3
Plato says:
Indeed. the Euphoricans were rather intransigent on that issue
Ljube says:
**** them
Paddy says:
care - allies Ljube - friends
Paddy says:
you may not like them, nor trust them
Plato says:
hahahaha. Elequint
Paddy says:
but they be the only allies we have
Ljube says:
yes, getting richer and fatter at our expense
Paddy says:
and now we have a set border that has cost us nothing
Paddy says:
how
Ljube says:
by stealing two tiles from us
Plato says:
As we do as well. We have received two huts for this boarder
Ljube says:
for the huts we received we had separate deals
Ljube says:
which we honured/will honour
Plato says:
yes indeed, but nonetheless, we did get the better of those deals don't you think?
Ljube says:
I don't think
Ljube says:
we gave them iron for their wheel
Ljube says:
we gamve them writing for their horse
Ljube says:
that's all very unfavourable
Paddy says:
matey - do you recall that you and I spent many a chat discussing these matters
Plato says:
Hmmm...So do you believe that this boarder was worth disolving tech deal and alliance?
Paddy says:
and when I have emailed you asking for further chats, you have not replied or been online
Ljube says:
yes, but I never expected such capitulatory attitude in negotiations with them
Paddy says:
oh give over old salt
Ljube says:
by the way I was terribly busy last few days
Ljube says:
sorry for not replying, I replied to Chris
Ljube says:
thought he would tell you
Paddy says:
ahhh no, but I emailed you seperate
I understand busy, had a list to discuss with you
hope we get that opportunity soon
Ljube says:
yeah
Plato says:
Ljube, your insight is tremendous on many things. I have learned so much, but I think this alliance may be worth some give on our part.
Ljube says:
you emailed if I'd be available for chat soon, but at the time I read the message you were already asleep so I presumed that soon had passed
Paddy says:
Please know that I am more than happy with the border
have you had a good look at their lands
we win
Paddy says:
when do I sleep old chap
Plato says:
Peace brothers! We are Horde!
Paddy says:
I have been here 19 hours now
Paddy says:
ok, so may we discuss somethings?
Ljube says:
yeah
Ljube says:
We have already given much for this alliance. What we conceded with this border is too much. We are actively aiding them become stronger and weakening our civ.
Paddy says:
Ljube, thank you for your words.
Ljube says:
Now we can't even build that coast city.
Plato says:
Ljube. What would you suggest from this point forward?
Paddy says:
May we step forward to a discussion that we need to have
Ljube says:
yes
Paddy says:
Ok, the issue gentlemen is iron
and how we can sell this to the babs and lost boys all on the next turn
Paddy says:
you are both the appropriate ambassadors
Ljube says:
difficult, no real contact with the lost boys
Paddy says:
we do need cash for the swords upgrades
Ljube says:
they don't have an ambassador
Plato says:
cube is being difficult as well
Paddy says:
A timetable of unit availablility
2670
2630 Upgrade 2 Veteran Swords
2590 KBH 1 Veteran Swords
2550
2510 Upgrade 1 Veteran Swords
2470 Bohkara 1 Veteran Swords
2430
2390 Upgrade 1 Veteran Swords; KBH 1 Veteran Swords
2350 Bloodview 1 Settler
2310
2270 Upgrade 1 Veteran Swords; Ta-Tu 1 Reg Horse; Fil-A 1 Reg Horse
2230 KBH 1 Veteran Swords
2190 Bohkara 1 Veteran Swords
Ljube says:
it seems as if they don't want iron
Paddy says:
their is the list of when we an have units
Paddy says:
I would like an extra 2 upgrades
Plato says:
120 gold?
Ljube says:
who wouldnt LOL
Paddy says:
difficult this all is
Paddy says:
that is why we have you two
Plato says:
hehe
Paddy says:
if I wanted impossible I would send for Maki
Paddy says:
Plato says:
lol
Paddy says:
she knows how to smack their heads in
Paddy says:
you two know the art of words
Ljube says:
perhaps we'll have more success if we negotiate the purchase of iron by say babs and tell them they are buying it for them and lost boys
PLATO has left the conversation.
Paddy says:
opps
Ljube says:
plato left
Paddy says:
ahhh he may be at work
Paddy says:
or having msn issues, McM did all night
Ljube says:
yeah, msn is unreliable
Paddy says:
I am sending you an email on some figures I did over night
Ljube says:
good
Paddy says:
Rob made an adjustment already
PLATO has been added to the conversation.
Paddy says:
I used to have a spreadsheet all set up for these matters
seem to have lost it in the past 3 years
Paddy says:
just sent Ljube the growth spreadsheet
Plato says:
okay, I'm back
Ljube says:
I think we should do the following
Ljube says:
tell babs we know they are coordinating research with lost boys
Ljube says:
and tell them we want to sell iron to both
Ljube says:
for say 150 gold
Ljube says:
they can split the cost
Plato says:
hmmm...and let the babs confirm with lb?
Ljube says:
yes
Ljube says:
cause I have no contact with lost boys
Paddy says:
do you really think they have that
Ljube says:
no meaningful contact that is
Ljube says:
yes, they probably have that
Plato says:
The tech situation is to coincidental
Ljube says:
yes, it must be the product of tech deals
Plato says:
weather it is a long term thing like we have or a series of one time things is an interesting question
Ljube says:
still they seem to coordinate just fine in terms of defence and science alike
Paddy says:
Lord Nuclear
Togas
Jonny
Octavian X
ok I have contact with Jonny and Oct
Plato says:
What defense co-op have you seen?
Ljube says:
them saying they would notify the LB about our troops movement
Paddy says:
yes the babas are happy talkers
Plato says:
That wasn't specific to Lb, although we could interpret it that way. I don't think we should assume that as a specific military co-op however
Ljube says:
hmm, the first thing thay spoke to you presuming you were LB ambassador was about our military
Paddy says:
well Gents we have just had the save, so there is aleast 24 hours until we get it again
Paddy says:
Ljube do you have all of their email addresses
Ljube says:
whose?
Paddy says:
the members of Lots Boys
Ljube says:
I have togas and lord nuclear
Ljube says:
I'll look up the others
Ljube says:
they are listed in the recepients thread
Plato says:
perhaps a communique to all their members?
Ljube says:
yes, I will do that
Paddy says:
cool
Plato says:
Perhaps we can ask that they appoint a specific ambassador to us. That may even start a stronger relationship
Paddy says:
haha
Paddy says:
good luck
Paddy says:
they seem to have some serious internal issues
Plato says:
yes they do, but somebody is playing the turn
Plato says:
be right back
Paddy says:
cool
Plato says:
back now. Sorry about that.
Plato says:
Shall we continue?
Ljube says:
ok
Plato says:
Do you want to send an e-mail to all members of both Babs and LB offering the iron deal?
Ljube says:
that would be interesting
Ljube says:
perhaps a first introduction to lost boys, just to appoint ambasador
Plato says:
Hmmm...That may be prudent, but could be time consuming.
Plato says:
Ljube says:
I'll send a message to all members of the lost boys clan asking for a contact.
Paddy says:
cool
Plato says:
Ljube says:
in teh meantime, plato can send an offer to gamecube saying we know they coordinate with lost boys
Ljube says:
what do you think?
Paddy says:
sounds good
Plato says:
I will do it tonight!
Paddy says:
good value
Paddy says:
now can we get to the next issue?
Ljube says:
uh, I will do my part tomorrow, must catch some sleep.
Paddy says:
sleep....
Paddy says:
Paddy says:
we have millions of them here in Oz
Plato says:
Sleep well Ljube! Don't be such a stranger.
Ljube says:
hahaha
Paddy says:
Plato says:
I opened the spreadsheet that you sent. Very good work. I am of the opinion the the pigs will be a tougher nut to crack than we think. I think the military options may be the best way to proceed. Once the task force is on the way we can switch to the oter options.
Ljube says:
yes, pigs are resilient
Ljube says:
I don't know if the bab warriors are there to aid them or hinder them further
Plato says:
I think the babs will probably step out of the way when it comes to it.
Plato says:
Paddy, do you think a couple of Euphorican warriors may want to explore the area around the babs?
Ljube says:
I've recently learned that lord nuclear has actually lied to paddy and me about his age, occupation, well about everything
Ljube says:
it turns out Lord Nuclear is just a kid, schoolboy
Ljube says:
this is what paddy and I suspected before paddy had a chat with him
Paddy says:
what
Paddy says:
really
Paddy says:
hehehe
Paddy says:
oh do tell me more
Plato says:
wow.
Ljube says:
Ok, so I got into this eventian chat invited by lord nuclear
Ljube says:
I was a little bit surprised by lord nuclear's affection toward me
Ljube says:
his expression of love in those words
Ljube says:
he started to invite me to these chats regularly
Ljube says:
in one of the chats I learned he's about the same age as jaguar or kuciwalker
Ljube says:
but he's a bit more mature and tries to present himself as being older
Plato says:
that's high school age!
Ljube says:
he gave himself out by saying he needed to study for school
Ljube says:
LOL
Ljube says:
I said what school
Ljube says:
and then joncha and snoopy told me
Plato says:
he has been a member since 9/16/02. Must have joined very young.
Ljube says:
yeah, not unusual
Plato says:
veeeeeery interesting
Ljube says:
for bright young prodigies
Plato says:
That may shed some light on their internal confusion
Paddy says:
hehe
Ljube says:
his behaviour, his mood swings, his overexpressed emotions
Ljube says:
all consistent with that age
Ljube says:
also all consistent with him being a French Canadian. That's why he was successful in fooling us before.
Plato says:
This brings an idea to mind: How about some psyops with him and dr?
Paddy says:
so he is 12 years old
Paddy says:
bugger
Ljube says:
hahah, yes about 12
Ljube says:
also he lives in vancouver
Plato says:
That's pretty far west for a French Canadian...
Ljube says:
hahaha, indeed
Ljube says:
but they still learn frnech in school
Ljube says:
Paddy says:
the little fk
Plato says:
haha
Plato says:
Perhaps we can play with those emotions some. I'll bet Ljube could have a war between LB and DR in no time. hehe
Ljube says:
hehe
Ljube says:
indeed, boys of that age tend to fixate on a role model
Paddy says:
role away
Plato says:
hehe. This could be very interesting to watch.
Ljube says:
unfortunately due to his mood swings he's no longer into this game
Ljube says:
I mean, he's not active
Plato says:
hmmm...I wonder if a carefully thought out private contact could rekindle that interest. Let's think about this. It could have some possibilities.
Plato says:
Do we know the age range of the other members of the Lost Boys?
Paddy says:
best to let a 12yr old go away I think
Ljube says:
hahahaha
Paddy says:
manipulating children is not the best
Plato says:
Paddy, you are too good a soul. LOL
Paddy says:
deal with Strength and Honoyr
Ljube says:
nobody is quite like paddy
Ljube says:
strength and honour indeed
Plato says:
hehe. very true. Strength and Honor!
Ljube says:
hmm, learn to spell honour properly
Plato says:
I'm an ignorant American, remember? LOL
Paddy says:
hehe
Plato says:
Oh....okay. Strength and Honour!
Plato says:
Ljube says:
That's right! The spelling of the Horde! We define the standards! After all we did discover literature.
Paddy says:
hehe
Plato says:
hehe!
Paddy says:
so can we talk of the war
Ljube says:
yeah
Plato says:
yes, let's
Paddy says:
excellent
Paddy says:
so you have bothe read the thread
Plato says:
yep
Ljube says:
your plan No 1 is great in general and nearly all details. Probably needs some refinement.
Ljube says:
small additions that would help this plan become perfect
Paddy says:
cool
Plato says:
I think that there are some possible modifications
Ljube says:
ok, do tell
Paddy says:
do you like what what bongo suggested
Paddy says:
oh indeed .....
Plato says:
The first question is, do we build the city south of Bokhara that Ljube had earlier suggested?
Ljube says:
that could become the new base of operations
Ljube says:
there is a clear adavantage to doing that
Paddy says:
yes it would be good
Plato says:
Next, I would advocate a 3 prong as opposed to a two pronged venture
Paddy says:
hehe
Ljube says:
listening
Plato says:
A lead element can set out upon task force blues route while some units are still under construction
Ljube says:
then they meet along the way
Plato says:
The newly built units would follow the direct route over the mountains and hook up
Ljube says:
perhaps we should split our forces in more fractions
Plato says:
I think that task force green should be split(it is green isn't it?)
Ljube says:
thus concealing the existence of any formation
Ljube says:
they will be interpreted as roaming forces
Plato says:
They should approach and be prepared for initial pillaging as opening act of war
Ljube says:
but they would have an assembly area
Plato says:
We can cover this through diplo by expressing growing concern of bab warriors near us
Ljube says:
yes, that would be plausible given our paranoid nature
Plato says:
We would think it prudent to have a southerly deployed force
Rob says:
hi
Ljube says:
hello
Plato says:
Rob!
Paddy says:
hi
Plato says:
excellent work you are doing ole boy!
Paddy says:
indeed
Ljube says:
yes, none of us is such builder/micromanager
Ljube says:
we are lucky to have you
Plato says:
very lucky. I would not have caught half what you see even with much scruitiny.
Ljube says:
indeed
Rob says:
ok...trying to read what you guys discussed
Paddy says:
haha
Plato says:
War discussion just really got started
Rob says:
what is up with our 'allies'?
Ljube says:
so far I mainly whined about our border deal with snoopy
Rob says:
ok...what is wrong with it?
Paddy says:
lads....
Rob says:
I mean...if we plan on taking out the Porkers...then we can't expand that way anyways...right/
Rob says:
?
Ljube says:
right, but if we win, the land between them and us is secure
Rob says:
that seems ok to me
Ljube says:
I have a certain inclination toward pushing to the limit
Rob says:
ahh
Paddy says:
Plato says:
hehe
Rob says:
well...push to the limit around the beginning of the IA
Ljube says:
It seems everybody else is happy with the border so I stopped complaining
Plato says:
Have you read the war discussion part yet Rob?
Rob says:
nope...probably just getting to it
Rob says:
I have to keep resetting whenever you guys type
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Paddy the Scot
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Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:17
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Rob says:
ok...I am now current
Paddy says:
woo hoo
Ljube says:
lol, you took some time
Paddy says:
any comments
Rob says:
You guys did a lot of talking...often about nothing! hehehe
Plato says:
hehe
Ljube says:
hehehe
Plato says:
The influence of the wild boar!
Paddy says:
wellcome to me Idaho
Rob says:
We still need to think about timelines...would it not be better to get to Chivalry quickly and then attack? Or do we need to take our initial advantage? Meanwhile...what is a realistic goal for production?
Ljube says:
chivalry is very far far away
Plato says:
quicker the better I say
Ljube says:
I don't see how it could be obtained quickly and then we would be at the mercy of our allies
Rob says:
Not necessarily...we have a tech partner (more or less); but I do agree that we should attack as soon as we can...so the next thing we have to calculate is production...
Ljube says:
remember, allies today, enemies tomorrow
Rob says:
I know...
Paddy says:
ljube....
Rob says:
and they benefit more than we do from Chivalry
Ljube says:
yes, that's why we must get gunpowder at the time they get chivalry, just in case
Rob says:
Well...we will discuss that in ~50 turns or so...
Ljube says:
yes
Ljube says:
or even more turns
Rob says:
Ok...as I had pointed out on Paddy's worksheet (and in the thread) we would be >20 turns production & movement for plan 1. That is likely not going to work.
Ljube says:
you want an attack soner?
Ljube says:
sooner?
Rob says:
We do have the advantage of an initial research boost...and it appears (although we don't know for certain) that the Porkers have not expanded much (possibly due to barbarian activity)
Ljube says:
yes and ours too hehehe
Paddy says:
3 cities size by the borders we can see
Rob says:
I am not the War Guru in this...so I have not actually done much by way of combat calculations...when we attack should be determined by a war guru...I am concentrating on what we can produce (and what we will likely face)
Plato says:
The immediate attack is somewhat risky...did you read Ljube's concerns in the thread?
Ljube says:
depends mainly on how they react to that immediate pillaging attack
Rob says:
I believe that the Porkers have 2-3 shields per city (generally)...this gives them 2 warriors or 1 spear/chariot every 10 turns (with the extra shields going towards other items)
Rob says:
not yet
Plato says:
What can they produce in the span of 5, 10, and 20 turns once their production has been pillaged?
Plato says:
already answered
Ljube says:
they can pop rush, they have big fat cities
Plato says:
told you that you were ahead of me!
Rob says:
very little...they are surrounded by swamp and grass...so size 3 cities are likely to get only 2 or 3 shields at best
Ljube says:
hmm, they have irrigated fish in one of the cities
Rob says:
they can not pop rush and research....
Rob says:
irrigated...or marsh? I thought I saw it as marsh...
Ljube says:
yes, they cleared that marsh
Ljube says:
it's a big food booster
Rob says:
yes...
Rob says:
So that city will be making settlers only...as they must expand to win...remember...they wish to win, not just defeat an attack from us...
Rob says:
which thread, Lubje, did you make comments?
Ljube says:
hmm, to win they must survive first
Ljube says:
they can't pop rush in their southernmost city as the city is dry
Plato says:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...825#post3732825
Rob says:
ok
Ljube says:
but it has plenty of forests
Ljube says:
so they can produce there
Ljube says:
they can pop rush in that fish city as it lacks shields
Ljube says:
and they have at least 2 forests in the city radius of their capital and we know they have a food bonus special
Ljube says:
so they can produce there and pop rush occasionally
Rob says:
food bonus special?
Ljube says:
yes, like we have
Rob says:
ok
Ljube says:
we have cattle, probably they have cattle too
Rob says:
that is likely
Ljube says:
I don't know how they would react to a pillaging attack, but I know how I would react.
Rob says:
btw, there is a forest next to the nw city
Ljube says:
bah, then they probably can produce there too
Ljube says:
I hope they are on settlers
Plato says:
So this makes their production capacity what?
Rob says:
probably 3-4...dependin upon size
Rob says:
could be higher...also depending upon where the cow is..
Ljube says:
how about ambushing their settler parties? that would hurt them much more
Ljube says:
would yield free workers for our horde
Plato says:
Hmmm...Perhaps a pillage attack would not be as disabling as we hope then?
Rob says:
only if we win...and then we run into the same situation that you mentioned before (them battoning the hatches and prepare for a gale0
Paddy says:
hmmm
Ljube says:
true, but with much less pop as they built settlers
Ljube says:
so pop rush no longer option
Ljube says:
or less of an option
Rob says:
provided that they sent out 2 at the same time...which is very unlikely
Rob says:
One of the critical pieces of info that we don't have is whether or not they already connected a spice (allowing larger cities)
Plato says:
Still, the difference between 2 and 4 spt is significant at this point. If they can prepare a defense well enough to slow our initial attack, then this could be a fruitless activity.
Rob says:
I can see 3 spices, so the next question is: where is the 4th
Ljube says:
do we have four dyes?
Rob says:
no
Ljube says:
then it's logical they also have only 3 spices
Plato says:
I only see three
Ljube says:
how many furs do the bards have?
Paddy has left the conversation.
Rob says:
unless there is a 4th dye elsewhere...usually you will get 4/6's of the nations for luxuries
Ljube says:
all lux are probably placed deliberately
Rob says:
Thus...in the Large map, I routinely see 8 luxuries for each type
Ljube says:
by teh map creator
Ljube says:
for the purpose of trading
Rob says:
possibly...but when I create a map...I only ensure that all resources are balanced out...I don't place all of a resource unless it is necessary.
Rob says:
So the rng is likely the placer of most of the luxes
Ljube says:
yeah
Ljube says:
yeah
Ljube says:
well one more advantage, after we kill pigs, in addition to spice we'll have that incense near those volcanoes
Rob says:
I will ensure that, for instance, all civs have access to each strategic resource (although 1 resource may be between two civs...)
Rob says:
that is only after we find a way to connect the trade network...
Ljube says:
good, however I'd like a city producing warriors for martial law happiness
Ljube says:
that would be an unconnected city
Rob says:
that would be wise...but for the moment...we can'
Ljube says:
yeah, just these two we started
Rob says:
t really do that (at least not after the next two warriors)
Paddy has been added to the conversation.
Rob says:
On the other hand...we can produce spears for defense and MP duty...
Ljube says:
yes, spears are also good for attack
Rob says:
I don't like that option...but it has some advantages (particularly when gunpowder is discovered)
Ljube says:
as canonfodder
Paddy says:
sorry about that
Rob says:
One further difficulty in this game is that we started with a disadvantaged trait...expansion. Since all civs had warriors to begin with, having the 5-10 turn movement advantage was stripped from us..
Ljube says:
yes, but we have a big advantage with our other trait - militaristic
Plato says:
welcom back paddy
Rob says:
It is like playing against the AI, except that the AI in this case are all humans....
Plato says:
hehe
Ljube says:
they mostly behave just like the ai LOL
Rob says:
Well...I hope not...since the AI would be sending warriors after our weak cities
Ljube says:
hmm, never sent any warrior against my cities
Ljube says:
the AI I mean
Ljube says:
why is that?
Rob says:
They do to mine unless I have 2/city for defense
Ljube says:
ah, so if you have 2 units in each city they don't attack?
Rob says:
Unless they have no other options....
Ljube says:
I usually have much more than that
Rob says:
Right...but WE don't at the moment....
Ljube says:
hahaha
Plato says:
Okay. Rob, what do you see as the optimal production schedule to deliver 8-10 swords, 5-6 warriors, and 2 horse to the pigs doorstep?
Rob says:
This game will be really fast...so each turn is critical...
Rob says:
hold on....
Plato says:
While still maintaing a defensive force adequate to ensure happiness and productivity?
Ljube says:
Lux slider can help.
Plato says:
indeed. Once the upgrades are complete
Ljube says:
10 lux is often enough to sustain growth
Ljube says:
10%
Plato says:
yep, but right now we produce +22 gpt...enough for one upgrade every 3 turns.
Rob says:
380 shields @ 20 shields per turn...
Rob says:
19 turns
Plato says:
19 turns?
Ljube says:
I suggest switching off science which should give us 3 more gold I think
Rob says:
that is the absolute minimum...likely, since I counted the cash as 5 spt, we will take longer
Plato says:
before we are ready? Is this production from scratch or including upgrades?
Ljube says:
19 turns is an ok interval
Plato says:
plus 11 for the trip
Ljube says:
I like my attacks prepared and overwhelming
Rob says:
from scratch...but...upgrades count @ the 5spt from the cash...so they are partially added (basically assume that you have a partial build)
Ljube says:
crushing
Plato says:
I agree that we should be overwhelming. No room for doubt
Plato says:
but 19 turns before takeoff seems awfully long
Rob says:
If we are going to go 30, I recommend going 40 and building one more city (the dye city) so that our people remain happy...
Ljube says:
well we just have to face it
Rob says:
This will alleviate (partially) the necessity of keeping MP's
Paddy says:
40 turns.... wow
Ljube says:
I prefer the city 2-1-1 from bokhara to move our base of operations closer to pigs
Plato says:
We can't depend on the porkers to remain idle eithier
Rob says:
One of the techniques for cash rushing can't be used here...so that hurts...
Rob says:
Well...we could always just build the road....
Plato says:
We need to turn some tech into cash
Ljube says:
what's a technique you use for cash rushing?
Rob says:
Plate...keep in mind that we are limited in what cash will do...that limit being our existing units
Ljube says:
a road without a city is awfully suspicious
Rob says:
You could cash-rush a spearman, then let the city build the rest of the shields (after you have at least 1 shield so the cash rush is not doubled)
Ljube says:
yeah, great method
Plato says:
indeed, but we can build the dye city unconnected....produce warriors cheap and then upgrade to speed things up. Then connect dyes as we leave
Ljube says:
indeed, but we can build 2-1-1 from bokhara unconnected, move slow movers there, then connect it and move horse there too
Rob says:
Now...we can partially do that with pop-rush (as spears are 20 shields, the exact same as pop-rush) but that is a BAD option, imho, since we are not food-rich
Plato says:
pop rush is last option imho
Ljube says:
pop rush is not an option any more
Plato says:
I like the idea of 2-1-1 from Bokhara
Ljube says:
it was in the very beginning, but not any more
Plato says:
The only draw back with 2-1-1Bokhara is that we would have to move warriors over mountains away from direction of attack to upgrade
Rob says:
...if we go 888 from Ta-Tu...we would get a wheat, and could immediately irrigate it...
Ljube says:
we don't move our warriors there before we upgrade them
Ljube says:
that's an interesting proposal
Rob says:
exactly right, Ljube...no warriors scheduled for upgrade move away from barracks until it is done
Paddy says:
so we could take 2 swords now
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
I have noticed that lots of people forget about lakes...
Ljube says:
lakes are great!
Plato says:
And the 2 swords paddy?
Ljube says:
but they are also so ours, we need to grab the land that still isn't
Rob says:
big lakes are great...little ones give the deadly possibility of canals
Ljube says:
yeah, lakes rock
Rob says:
Speaking of grabbing land...I also note that the Porkers don't appear to have any good expansion options...another reason why waiting may be the right move...
Ljube says:
yes, babs seem to be trying to prevent them from expanding
Ljube says:
the pigs can only spread in that jungle west of their land
Rob says:
They certainly will not want to expand into the jungle...yet that is their only option if they come towards us...
Paddy says:
my concern is the babs get in and takle the porkers before us
Plato says:
I am still dismayed at what the porkers can do in preperation. We must remember that we have bab spies on our boarders. @4spt/city they will produce 360 shields in 30 turns
Paddy says:
they are similar size army as us
Paddy says:
and they have bowmen
Rob says:
Well...then we will have to build the 2-1-1 city and keep an army in their to move if the Babs attack
Ljube says:
are they average?
Ljube says:
babs are getting redy for attack
Rob says:
there
Ljube says:
are babs average compared to us right now?
Ljube says:
I didn't check
Plato says:
yes, and they have hinted that they do not like the porkers...while the prokers say the relation is very good. hmmm....
Plato says:
yes, they are average
Paddy says:
my error, we are strong to the babs
Ljube says:
hahaha, poor porkers
Plato says:
We weren't two saves ago
Ljube says:
ah, still, they were average a few turns ago
Paddy says:
indeed
Paddy says:
so we are only just infront
Ljube says:
yeah, would be nice to know how others compare between each other
Plato says:
hmmm...Their is no other real target for the babs if they have the alliance with LB that we believe they do
Ljube says:
the bards can be useful
Plato says:
see...knew you would find a use for them! LOL
Ljube says:
LOL
Ljube says:
the other bab target could be aqua, but bab movement indicates they have the same target
Ljube says:
as we do
Plato says:
Agreed. Their warriors may be watching for when we move out so that they may do the same...and they are closer
Ljube says:
hahaha
Ljube says:
they don't want to let us rob them of pig land
Rob says:
ok...we have 12 warriors and two archers (as of last turn)....that gives (assuming average hp's are the same) 26 pts...
Rob says:
Each Bab archer is 5 (not 4)
Rob says:
if we are strong...they are <22
Ljube says:
how do you calculate this?
Rob says:
attack=1.5, defense=1.0...hp's are multiplied...there is a slight bonus for bombard that I didn't bother with, as the quantity of units is too small for it to matter
Ljube says:
great!
Plato says:
so if we see 3 bab warriors, and assune they have at least 3 in their interior, the how many bowmen could they have?
Ljube says:
and 3 outside
Ljube says:
maybe 4 warriors outside
Plato says:
yes, the three we see
Rob says:
However...keep in mind...we have a lot of vets...that can make a big difference
Rob says:
at any rate...each warrior is 2.5
Ljube says:
I'm not sure i get the formula and how it works
Plato says:
So 15 minimum for warriors only leaves room for 1 bowman
Rob says:
ok...take 1.5 for each attack pt, 1.0 for each defense pt...add together, multiply by hp's
Paddy says:
has anyof you seen the power screen
Paddy says:
our power base is growing
Rob says:
I noticed that last turn...
Ljube says:
so a warrior is 10 then
Ljube says:
1.5+1.0 times 4HP
Rob says:
Part of the power base is cash...another part is qtty of cities
Rob says:
yes...if it is vet
Rob says:
now...if you have an injured troopie...only his current hp's count
PLATO has left the conversation.
Rob says:
did Plato mean to leave?
Ljube says:
probably not, but I do cause I need to get some sleep
Ljube says:
Rob says:
sleep? What's that...? Oh...you mean the time when I fall unconcious?
Ljube says:
yeah
Paddy says:
Ljube says:
I have to work tomorrow, unfortunately
Paddy says:
yes we have them in Oz
Rob says:
I will try to build a spreadsheet for the units either tomorrow or Thursday...
PLATO has been added to the conversation.
Ljube says:
Plato says:
Hey. Got kicked out for a second. Can you invite me back in?
Rob says:
btw, inexplicably, movement is not counted in the army strength...
Ljube says:
lol
Plato says:
ahh...there i am
Plato says:
Interesting stuff. I am dismayed that we are looking at 30-40 turns
Rob says:
Either we do that or attack with current units in the area...
Ljube says:
that's why I ask we bring the base closer to the pigs
Ljube says:
withour units in that new city we can react real fast
Rob says:
Paddy and I noticed that for a turn or two, our F3 advisor said their best unit was a worker...
Plato says:
I agree. we need that base, but we also need the dyes
Rob says:
We can forgo the dyes...but only at the expense of upgrades
Ljube says:
I'm all for that
Ljube says:
time is of the essence and we need the assembly area nearer to pigs
Plato says:
Okay...Let's make some assumtions
Rob says:
...on the other hand...we can go for both...if we allow a city to become very, very productive...and expand after that has happened
Plato says:
1.) settler for 2-1-1 Bokhara asap. How long? and what damage to production?
Plato says:
2.) additional 150gp for tech trades
Ljube says:
no damage, bok will grow to 4, reduce to 2 grow back to 3 soon
Plato says:
3.) 8-10 swords through maximum upgrades.
Paddy says:
lads, please accept my apolgise, I have a client inbound... could be 15 mins, may be a few hours
please keep chatting will give me something good to read later
Plato says:
4.) New warriors for martial law happiness from 2-1-1 Bokhara
Ljube says:
ah please do continue this chat, but I most definitely must go to sleep now or I'm toast
Plato says:
How long with total effort?
Rob says:
Bokhara builds settler in 6 turns (5 turns to growth)
Paddy says:
thank you all for a great chat
Ljube says:
see you
Paddy says:
bye
Rob says:
bye
Plato says:
bye
Ljube has left the conversation.
Rob says:
Ok...as for growing back soon...Bokhara will not grow back soon...since it does not have a granary...all extra food is lost, iirc. That means 10 turns to growth
Plato says:
hmmm...That will severly damage its production
Rob says:
Here is the part many players miss: you must have 20 food to go from size 1 to size 2. You must have 20 food to go from size 5 to size 6!
Rob says:
If you get +3 fpt, it takes 7 turns to grow, if you have +2 it takes 10, if you have +4 it takes 5
Plato says:
so is Bokhara the proper place to produce settler?
Rob says:
depends...it would be a great place after we build 1 sword...as it will gain the benefit of greater production and then reduce at about the time it would go unhappy
Plato says:
Then that would be optimal for Bokhara
Rob says:
KBH has the same potential...except since it gets >spt, it can wait longer
Plato says:
KBH should be sword factory imo
Rob says:
Well...that holds true until you have the problem of making somebody a taxman or scientist...then you are wasting population...
Plato says:
it should suffice for 30 turns though shouldn't it?
Rob says:
Now....it could also just make a much-needed worker at that time and continue on its happy sword-making ways...
Plato says:
hmmm...
Plato says:
A worker that could start the road to 2-1-1Bokhara
Rob says:
ok....KBH can get +3 fpt...
Plato says:
So 7 turns for growth
Rob says:
if two mp's are kept in the city, it can retain only a size 4 w/o extra luxury...
Rob says:
If we hook up dyes...then the city can reach size 6 w/o extra lux
Plato says:
it looks as if we should look at two settlers and connect the dyes then. But this will push us closer to 40 turns as opposed to 30
Rob says:
yep
Plato says:
ok. what if no dyes and lux set to 10%. ?
Rob says:
no idea...
Rob says:
I only know that all cash in the capital will not be corrupt...
Plato says:
hmmm...I wonder if we can get the same utility for 3gpt and still achieve a launch window of 30 turns or less.
Rob says:
However...remember also that their is no bonus for the capital going to size 5...
Rob says:
7spt or 6spt both take 5 turns to make a swordman or horseman
Rob says:
...this is assuming that we don't wish to build a spear in the capital, of course, as that would be a difference
Plato says:
hmmm...so if we achieve size 6 then we could produce settler and still have basically same productivity?
Rob says:
yes...if we could make a size 6 city (which we can not do at the moment)
Plato says:
will the food box continue to fill when we get to size 5?
Rob says:
no...because one laborer will be moved to either tax, science, or entertainer (or the city will go into riots)
Rob says:
actually...yes...it would, but at only +1fpt
Rob says:
thus...20 turns to size 6
Plato says:
hmmm...if we could avoid that with lux slider and schedule settler to produce right befor food box becomes full and then grow to 4 we would maintain max production?
Rob says:
...if we get to keep food....and I am not sure we do...I think, if you don't have a granary, that you lose all excess food...
Rob says:
let me go try that out...
Plato says:
okay. cool. Well my friend alas bedtime has come for me as well. Let's do get together again soon. You may very well be the key to victory!
Plato says:
Please do post your results as I will see them in the morning. Goodnight!
Rob says:
Ok...I checked and the city retained its extra food when a settler was produced.
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13-04-2005 09:39
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