13-04-2005 22:26									#1
	How to Win at Napolic Era Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

without the MPP cheat

This is going to be from the French perseptive, but may be applyable for other countries as well.

Overview:

Govts: All forms of govt already discovered. France is in their best one (Republic) but also starts the game with at the max low WW limit for all countries it's involved in a locked war with. The bad news is the inital unhappiness problem, but the good news is that it won't get any worse as long as you wipe out England's lackies before actually declaring war on others. There is an unconnected Fur resource near Paris. There is also only two native French workers. There are no Great Wonders that can be built. (England starts with Adam Smiths in London) France also starts with 2 MGLs and has no Small Wonders built. In addition France has a large military combared to most countries, but most of them are the inferior units. France does start with a Baracks in all their cities along with many improvements in most of them.
Cities retain culture is on, noone is allowed to build settlers, victory conditions are 60K points domination is 40% land + 40% pop, but your probably playing on too low a level for yourself if you hit domination before VPs.

Turn 1: First sign MA with all countries (excluding the locked war ones) against England. All of the except your Denmark ally will glady hand over their entire tresury for the honor of fighting the Brits. Austria and Prussia will quickly need RoPs as well, so they'll go thru your territory at a quick rate rather than at a snails crawl. (They are trying to get to Gibratura, but will turn around in route when Italy declares war on them)

Now aquire the Turk luxary you don't own. You need it.

Then you have a decision to make as to if you want Fur now in trade (and duplicate your unconnected one) or willing to wait.

On the Monarch level, if your waiting, you'll need 10% luxary slider.

On Emperor+ levels, you may need the 10% luxary slider even with Fur.

(If you allow the cities to grow, the locked-war WW happiness problem will get worse. I have often seen two additional people unhappy when one of my cities grew by one.)

Since there's a bit of a happiness problem along with a worker shortage, kill two birds with one stone by having cities build workers.

On the 2 MGLs, I sugest using the southern one to build your FP on turn 1, but not on the spot it's at. I built mine in the size 5 city just north since it's so close to so many other cities. (Actually, I think that Marsellis would have been the better choice considering it has more iferstructure) There's only 96 turns in this game; no time to waste building it normally.

For Napleon, I sugest making him an army and filling him with your special ones. (The one that counts as your UU)

Use the massive cash you just got to upgrade all your untrained infs to your UU.

Techs: I sugest reseraching the one that doubles worker speed first and the one allowing the French Guard second.

Targets:

I sugest the Dutch & Italains first.

Won't take much to knock out the Dutch. The first city in Italy will also fall quickly, but Naples will require Cannons, Napolean, and some Calvary in addition to your inf. [Size 10 on a hill] There is a reward for getting Naples though: A unique luxary.

Next would then be Protogual and then the rock. [No, let other countries take care of them first.]

Last edited by joncnunn on 27-05-2005 at 02:21

	14-04-2005 09:19									#2
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Pretty much agree, except for the upgrades, and it's a minor disagreement. Most of your musketmen won't see combat that first turn, so if you find another use for that gold (can't think of one right off the bat, though), you can upgrade them piecemeal. Also, by upgrading them en route to wherever you send them, you will, in some cases, be able to get them there a turn quicker, or with 1/3 MP left to allow them to fortify, just in case. Just upgrade the first time they hit a city on the second third of their movement.

I've found on Monarch and Emperor that Voltigeurs, cannon and cavs are enough to take Florence, Rome, Naples, and the rest of Italy, though not without casualties. This usually happens if I send Napolean (who I also fill with Voltigeurs) toward the Dutch in order to get rid of them on turn 2, though Nap can still get in on the end of it, if you like. One advantage is that you wind up with a handful of veteran and elite voltigeurs, and I have popped a leader or two in Italy using this method.

I generally concur on the order of attack, and would add not to be afraid of an ROP with Spain, in order to get to Gibraltar and Portugal. If you don't like the Spanish units in your borders, the Pyreneees roads are easy to block, meaning they won't get very far. Later in the game, a Pyrenees wall is feasible without tying up too many resources.

A couple of things joncnunn didn't touch on:

This one should be blindingly obvious, but bears a mention. At the start, your cities are chock full of entertainers, due to the aforementioned unhappiness. Get them working.

As jon said, build workers ASAP. Your GA will kick in around the second turn unless you go to great lengths to avoid it, and you're going to need some improvements up in a hurry. Btw, Paris starts out overirrigated, so as soon as you have enough improvements for everything to be worked, start mining some of that irrigation. Improve the unirrigated tiles first, though, for quicker growth.

Mobilize. I don't necessarily mean mobilize on turn 1 or always mobilize, but you should be able to use it extensively. Wars and enemies come and go so often that you don't have to fear being forced to stay mobilized for too long, and it's a great boost to your unit production. The first couple of times I played this one, I forgot all about mobilization, but the last two times through, I've almost thought of the scenario as a perfect display of the power of it. For a real treat, mobilize during your GA. Ever see a forest produce four shields before?

Edit: Regarding Britain early on, her best asset is sea power. Once you feel you have enough workers swarming around, have Amsterdam, Boulogne, Brussels, Caen, Brest and Nantes, or some combination of at least two or three of them, building cannons and the occasional frigate. Stack the cannons at a couple of strategic spots along the Channel coast and bombard her ships when they end their turn. It takes a little practice to get a feel for where they'll stop, and eventually, the AI learns and avoids coastal tiles, but in the meantime, you can build up a considerable fleet of vet and elite frigates, at the expense of British men o'war and transports. Also, Britain's invasion will come sooner than you expect if you leave a coastal city empty, even down at Nantes and Bordeaux, so always make sure you have a couple of units that can at least get to any empty city next turn.

Last edited by Solomwi on 14-04-2005 at 09:26

	14-04-2005 12:53									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Comments for higher difficulty level, and for playing other nations.


Republic is not the best government form here. You will be at war for most of the game, so you will be experiencing WW, making your cities riot at random, or forcing you to use Governors. Also, cash is not very important, as you need to research 2, 4 techs tops. The only thing that makes France stay in Republic is the fear of a very long Anarchy - a bad thing being at war with multiple enemies.

Research/buy/extort only necessary techs: Nationalism, Advanced Tactics (only if it gives you a new unit). You can go for Military Logistics and Artillery Tactics, but I advise against it, except if your game becomes really peaceful (but why would it? ). You should be able to extort all other things you need with ease, and they are not very important anyway. This also means you can use the lux slider much more than in epic games. Even 30% is not that bad.

You need Courthouses, Markets, Aqueducts, and Barracks - that is all (Granaries are usually already in place.) You should do fine without any culture builds except maybe Temples in big cities. Just get all luxuries you can on the first turn, and make sure to conquer some more ASAP. Sure, you can have fun with Hospitals later on, but I would not exect that to be a major factor. Size 12 is usually as good as it gets, especially if you figure Drafting into the equation.

Drafting is essential to win on any higher difficulty level. You need the numbers to hold off the AI as you wait for more Armies. If playing Russia, this will be your main source of units at the beginning, before some infrastructure is up. It also helps fill cities with MPs for Monarchy. There are a few cities able to grow each turn (or very second turn) from size 11 to 12 - use them. Your cities should build mainly Cavalry (or your equivalent).

Most countries start with luxuries that need to be connected. Do it ASAP.

Countries other than France start without MGLs, so be prepared to build the FP the hard way.

Building many, many Workers goes for all countries. It is essential to improve tiles ASAP, since you will probably get into a war and have the GA fired up pretty quickly.

	14-04-2005 13:05									#4
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There is no correct way per se. Everyone has their own strat that works for them.

Playing as France, in addition to what's already been posted:



Turn one:

Sign all MA's against perfid Albion.

I'd use one MGL to rush build the Military Academy and the other to rush the FP/or build army.

Connect unhooked luxuries, furs IIRC.

Trigger GA with voltigueur.

Don't research anything, use the money to just build military units (cavalry). Cash is very important, rake in all the amounts you can. Trade, trade, trade.

Turn two: start cash-rushing armies.
And either mobilize (after all take advantage of this tech, you're the only one that has it), but moblize only once the Military Academy and FP have been completed, with the GA at the same time (they are both cumulative).

You ought to be building cavalry like there was no tomorrow. There'll be all veterans because you have barracks in every city IIRC.

With this strat it's no sweat beating this scenario on a higher level (I did it on Emperor, not sure about Deity or Sid, though, should be the same I guess).

Last edited by Drakan on 14-04-2005 at 13:15

	14-04-2005 20:05									#5
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Solomawi, I indeed used Napelon full of Vulatrines combined with local starting Calvary units to take Amsterdam on turn 2 (and a GA). Actully the Calvary might not have fought because of how few defenders Amsterdam have.

Napeolon reached Italy in time for Naples. Well, actually the attack on Naples was delayed one turn for Napalon.

On Mobilization, I think it's best to not be mobilized in the GA. The GA itself increases shields and also by avoiding mobilization and the cities missing Libaries & Catherdrials can have them added and the captured towns can get their Temples replaced.

	14-04-2005 20:28									#6
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There's no need for governors to solve WW happiness. Just inspect every single city at the end of movement [after all combat]

Also being in anarchy during a GA would be insane and I think France is going to be in it no later than turn 2.

On techs, I think you left out the one that doubles the speed of workers. That one is absolutely esstinal to improve your lands. Your not going to run out of work any time soon. Priority is also a key, until the GA ends, it's more worthwhile to mine a currently irrigated grassland wheat than mine a currently irrigated plains wheat.

France has a slightly added incentive for the tech doubling working speeds, because it allows a tech that has a cheap happiness structure which is probably going to be useful until such time as you can wipe out Britian.

It's also probably important to honorably be conquering. (NOT RoP-Raping / breaking alliances) If your honorable, you can conquer them one at a time. If your dishonarble, it's more likely they'll start ganging up on you.

This also means that MPP agreements should be avoided for both France and Britian until and unless your locked allies are wiped out, because they can cause you to break them.

I'm thinking that playing France in a SP game Britian can probably be conquered if you build enough Imperial Guards + Heavy Calvary + Volvs, if you safely get your starting transports to Northern France. (Alternatively replace them.) [AI tactics are that bad]

One way to get more Frigates is to build the SW. (Naval Tactics is the required tech.) I didn't need to reserach it myself, I found that one of the AIs researched it and shared it around right after I finished reseraching my second tech.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Comments for higher difficulty level, and for playing other nations. Republic is not the best government form here. You will be at war for most of the game, so you will be experiencing WW, making your cities riot at random, or forcing you to use Governors. Also, cash is not very important, as you need to research 2, 4 techs tops. The only thing that makes France stay in Republic is the fear of a very long Anarchy - a bad thing being at war with multiple enemies. Research/buy/extort only necessary techs: Nationalism, Advanced Tactics (only if it gives you a new unit). You can go for Military Logistics and Artillery Tactics, but I advise against it, except if your game becomes really peaceful (but why would it? ). You should be able to extort all other things you need with ease, and they are not very important anyway. This also means you can use the lux slider much more than in epic games. Even 30% is not that bad. You need Courthouses, Markets, Aqueducts, and Barracks - that is all (Granaries are usually already in place.) You should do fine without any culture builds except maybe Temples in big cities. Just get all luxuries you can on the first turn, and make sure to conquer some more ASAP. Sure, you can have fun with Hospitals later on, but I would not exect that to be a major factor. Size 12 is usually as good as it gets, especially if you figure Drafting into the equation. Drafting is essential to win on any higher difficulty level. You need the numbers to hold off the AI as you wait for more Armies. If playing Russia, this will be your main source of units at the beginning, before some infrastructure is up. It also helps fill cities with MPs for Monarchy. There are a few cities able to grow each turn (or very second turn) from size 11 to 12 - use them. Your cities should build mainly Cavalry (or your equivalent). Most countries start with luxuries that need to be connected. Do it ASAP. Countries other than France start without MGLs, so be prepared to build the FP the hard way. Building many, many Workers goes for all countries. It is essential to improve tiles ASAP, since you will probably get into a war and have the GA fired up pretty quickly.

	14-04-2005 20:37									#7
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On which military units to build, after having the one allowing the French Guard.

I recomend having the cities that save a turn by building Calvary to build Calvary and those that take the same time to build Calvary & French Guard build French Guard.

This minimizes wasted shields.

On the Military Academy, in light that armies cost the same to build as the MA itself, I fail to see the usefulness of it in a game that has a max of 96 turns. Get your armies for free via MGL generation.

	14-04-2005 21:07									#8
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You are right, I would not suggest switching out of Republic early. What I did was simpy point out that Monarchy seems better here. Meaning, other countries should refrain from trying to change.

As to techs, you should be able to extort really easy even on Sid, so I still think you only need Nationalism and sometimes Advanced Tactics. Just get more units moving via short-rushing, and rush basic structures (Courthouses are important) to build even quicker. Then go and conquer the most conveniently placed neighbour. Insteado f wiping him out, get all techs and cash. Then, move on to the next one. Using the GA and Mobilization, your main concern are tiles with zero spt and those tiles alone. Even the weaker Workers should handle that just fine.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn On the Military Academy, in light that armies cost the same to build as the MA itself, I fail to see the usefulness of it in a game that has a max of 96 turns. Get your armies for free via MGL generation.

It depends. Countries not directly at war might have the time to build things, and yes - build Armies. Does the Military Academy improve Army strength in this Conquest, by the way?

	14-04-2005 22:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn On Mobilization, I think it's best to not be mobilized in the GA. The GA itself increases shields and also by avoiding mobilization and the cities missing Libaries & Catherdrials can have them added and the captured towns can get their Temples replaced.

I've done it both ways, and generally agree with you. My suggestion was more in the novelty than strategy vein, though I didn't really make that clear.

On invading Britain, the earlier, the better. I'd still recommend having Portugal, Naples and the Dutch knocked out, but keep in mind that the longer you wait, the more time you're giving them to build up. As soon as Napolean is free, drop him and whatever cannons, cavalry and voltigeurs you can spare off at London and start knocking down however many units you can each turn. Remember that armies heal in enemy territory, so anytime Napolean gets into the yellow, simply fortify him and attack with any healthy cavalry you might have. Once you take London, and can flood it with troops from the mainland, the rest fall with certainty, no matter how tough they seem. You can wait until you have IG, but by then Britain will be building Lifeguards, which make Cardiff and Glasgow, in particular, tough nuts to crack (D:7, amplified to 15.75 with the combat defense bonus in Glasgow, and 17.5 in Cardiff if you attack head on for speed's sake).

I agree on the MA. 1/6 of the game is just too long for a single army when it could be 4 Imperial Guards instead. I build the MA for army strength purposes, though I just checked the editor, and "Increase Army Strength" isn't checked, so that's a waste.

	15-04-2005 01:22									#10
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Well, a big part of the delay for geting IG is that most of the cannons is in Italy. (Captured from there in fact ) and so it's going to be about 15 turns for them to get back from Italy to Northern France anyway which gives you time to build IG.

Artillery helps tremiously against size 7+ towns on hills.

A stack of IG with the Army would also discourage AI attacks more the a stack of Calvary with an Army would. (Higher defense value) And the IG has the same attack value as French Calvary. (Just without the retreat ability)

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I've done it both ways, and generally agree with you. My suggestion was more in the novelty than strategy vein, though I didn't really make that clear. On invading Britain, the earlier, the better. I'd still recommend having Portugal, Naples and the Dutch knocked out, but keep in mind that the longer you wait, the more time you're giving them to build up. As soon as Napolean is free, drop him and whatever cannons, cavalry and voltigeurs you can spare off at London and start knocking down however many units you can each turn. Remember that armies heal in enemy territory, so anytime Napolean gets into the yellow, simply fortify him and attack with any healthy cavalry you might have. Once you take London, and can flood it with troops from the mainland, the rest fall with certainty, no matter how tough they seem. You can wait until you have IG, but by then Britain will be building Lifeguards, which make Cardiff and Glasgow, in particular, tough nuts to crack (D:7, amplified to 15.75 with the combat defense bonus in Glasgow, and 17.5 in Cardiff if you attack head on for speed's sake). I agree on the MA. 1/6 of the game is just too long for a single army when it could be 4 Imperial Guards instead. I build the MA for army strength purposes, though I just checked the editor, and "Increase Army Strength" isn't checked, so that's a waste.

	15-04-2005 01:26									#11
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Ok, unless there's a religious civ in this conquest, I wouldn't sugest declaring a revolution at all at any time during this one for any civ any more than I would for WW II Pacific.

Still, I think that the increased trade of Republic is better than Monarchy.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You are right, I would not suggest switching out of Republic early. What I did was simpy point out that Monarchy seems better here. Meaning, other countries should refrain from trying to change.

	15-04-2005 02:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Well, a big part of the delay for geting IG is that most of the cannons is in Italy. (Captured from there in fact ) and so it's going to be about 15 turns for them to get back from Italy to Northern France anyway which gives you time to build IG. Artillery helps tremiously against size 7+ towns on hills. A stack of IG with the Army would also discourage AI attacks more the a stack of Calvary with an Army would. (Higher defense value) And the IG has the same attack value as French Calvary. (Just without the retreat ability)

What I neglected to mention (indeed, didn't think about) was that I had plenty of cannons in the area because of my Channel bombardment tactic. By the time I decided to land at London, British ships had begun avoiding my coastal tiles, and the war in Italy was progressing well without these particular cannons (concur on capturing plenty in Italy ) or the army, so over they went.

The IG are good to have in an invasion, no doubt. The point I was trying to make is that Advanced Tactics tends to help Britain fight back an invasion more than it helps France make the invasion easier. It doesn't take long once you start producing IG to get them caught up to the invasion, and already having that foothold helps out a good bit in that regard. Plus, not delaying the invasion if you don't have to gets Adam Smith's in your hands that much quicker.

Oh, and artillery is definitely a must-have. Redcoats are a bit more susceptible to it than Lifeguards, but you're not dislodging either without it.

	15-04-2005 19:29									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I checked the exact stats of the French & English normal Inf and elite Inf.

France does have the edge in Elite Inf types.

Vlat. 6/5/1 vs RedCoat 5/6/1

Imperial Guard 8/8/1 [+1 HP] vs Life Guard 7/7/1 [+1 HP]

conclusion: There is a better chance of the IG winning against a Life Guard than a Vlat winning against a Redcoat

Last edited by joncnunn on 15-04-2005 at 21:51

	15-04-2005 19:36									#14
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Jon, you are forgetting the fact that being on defense gives you benefits the attacker does not have. Add at least 25% for being fortfied, add another 50% for sitting in a city or on a Hill, and the French become pretty weak when invading. The Voltigeurs seem like a fine force, but not when Household Cavalry (British mounted units, 7/4/2 stats) takes them on. Of course, this is much less difficult against a low-level AI, or any AI for that matter, but you still need to have a serious force. Even Imperial Cavalry is not so great due to the +1 HP of the Lifeguard.

	15-04-2005 21:29									#15
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When the defense boni add up to 125 or 150% (fort., hill, city, river in the latter case), the redcoat is still formidable, at D_eff:15 in the worst case, thus the need for artillery no matter when you invade. 15 is still better to attack than 17.5, though. The other benefit of this is that even after Lifeguards appear, you're going to face fewer of them in each city than if Britain's had time to build up significantly, one or two at the most for a good stretch.

	15-04-2005 22:14									#16
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Attacking a RedCoat with a Valt in a sitation where there is a 25% bonus:

6 vs 7.5 [4 : 5 against you] Probability of winning 44%

Same situation with a 50% bonus

6 vs 9 [2 : 3 against you] Probablity of winning: 40%

Same situation with a 75% bonus

6 vs 10.5 [12 : 21 against you] Probablity of winning: 36%

Same sitution but with 100% bonus:

6 vs 12 [1 : 2 against you] Probability of winning: 33%

Attacking a Life Guard with a Imperial Guard in a situtation where there is a 25% defense bonus

8 vs 8.75 [32 : 35 against you] Probablitity of winning: 47%

Same situation with a 50% bonus

8 vs 10.5 [16 : 21 against you] Probability of winning: 43%

Same situation with a 75% bonus

8 vs 12.25 [32 : 49 against you] Probability of winning: 40%

Same situation with 100% defensive bonus

8 vs 14 [4 : 7 against you] Probabability of winning : 36%

Conclusions :

1. An elite inf vs elite inf matchup benifits France more than England. (But not by much)

2. In both cases you really want Cannons to get down on the loses and in fact the tech allowing advanced type cannons is worth researching.

Last edited by joncnunn on 15-04-2005 at 22:31

	15-04-2005 22:19									#17
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Additionaly it is better to take the time to cross rivers at an uncontested point [failing that a weak point] than attacking a city directly across the river.

	15-04-2005 22:35									#18
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Every chance you gave is under 50% for tha attacker. How does it benefit the attacker then? I must admit you lost me here.

There is another problem: Lifegurds are a little cheaper that Imperial Guards. So the ratio is slightly more in favor of Britain that straight 1-1 unit comparisons show.

	15-04-2005 22:56									#19
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I'm not advocating attacking redcoats with Voltiguers, though. Attack them with Napolean and Imperial Cavs, and Volts only if you get down to the point where one or two more attacks will get you the city and all remaining defenders are redlined.

You've got an 8 attack unit from the start, so all gaining IG does is give you 8 attack with a bonus HP. Looking at it that way, the numbers change to (assuming all vet units, and attack with IC):

85% bonus (flatland, fortified, city): Redcoat wins 33.5%, Lifeguard wins 40.3%

125% bonus (hills, fortified, city): Redcoat wins 37.8%, Lifeguard wins 42.9%

150% bonus (same as above, with river): Redcoat wins 39.7%, Lifeguard wins 43.9%

Using an IG as the attacker, Lifeguard chances for victory go to 77.0% (85% bonus), 85.0% (125% bonus) and 88.3% (150% bonus). Note that the IC numbers include the possibility of retreat. Comparing the situations of IC attacking Redcoat or IG attacking Lifeguard at 85% bonus (the most common situation faced), French victory chances are 31.6% with the IC/Redcoat and 23.0% with the IG/Lifeguard.

Obviously it's better to cross, all other things being equal, but if I have plenty of artillery and a couple of armies for the attack, I'm not really gaining anything. Also, if that extra turn allows the city to get one more Lifeguard built or moved in, my delay has cost me, more likely than not.

	15-04-2005 23:18									#20
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I played this scenario on Deity and found that England never launched an invasion of any consequence. A few stray units (a stack of 4 was the biggest event) were all that crossed the channel.
In this particular game I maintained only a few frigates, but never left cities empty (as that draws the PC like a moth to a flame no matter where and when). Two defenders were present at all times in the mainland (i.e. normally unthreatened) cities.

My main point is that invading England may be a fun exercise, but it also seems too effortful and slow. I found the scenario fairly demanding in terms of the victory conditions and I had to take a large portion of the continent (including Prussia and Austria, but not Spain) to fulfill them. Had I taken on England instead I might have been slowed down too much. The transport by boat alone is effortful and slow and then the English units are formidable compared to the Grenzers and other weaklings that the continental forces muster.

For France in this scenario, Spain is the most loyal non-forced ally. With the exception of the really weak nations, which are likely gone quickly, almost all others are fairly hostile and prone to ally against you.

	15-04-2005 23:27									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The main benefit of invading (and eliminating) England is that you get rid of all the unhappiness you had at the start, and from that point forward can control your WW much better. You also don't have to defend western France at all once England is out of the picture, leaving you free to throw pretty much your full weight to the east (minus a few units to hold the Pyrenees if you don't eliminate Spain).

	15-04-2005 23:52									#22
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Modo, are you saying you never attack an indiviudal unit when you have more chance of that unit losing than winning?

even with you have a back up units in place to attack the hopefully weakened defender the same turn when your first attacker loses?

The Life Guard would need to be 1/8th less expensive than the Imperial Guard to have the same cost effectiveness.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Every chance you gave is under 50% for tha attacker. How does it benefit the attacker then? I must admit you lost me here. There is another problem: Lifegurds are a little cheaper that Imperial Guards. So the ratio is slightly more in favor of Britain that straight 1-1 unit comparisons show.

	16-04-2005 00:02									#23
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What???

In my game Spain was the first country to sign peace with Britian (breaking the MA against them.)

I must admit that Austria was first to sign an embargo against me [with minor nation], but they broke their embargo when latter a different minor nation declared war on Austria forcing that minor nation to also declare war on Austria.

I am currently perplexed at Spains movement actions. I needed a RoP with them and signed one, and while Austrian, Prussian, and Ottoman units crossed my territory heading into Spain (probably to the rock) Spain sent it's units across my territory and into Prussia.

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy For France in this scenario, Spain is the most loyal non-forced ally. With the exception of the really weak nations, which are likely gone quickly, almost all others are fairly hostile and prone to ally against you.

	16-04-2005 00:08									#24
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That's one difference between Diety and Monarch.

On Monarch level, the AI isn't informed enough about the Victory Conditions and so you can afford to invade England, you get the significant VP lead early simply by wiping the minor nations and the AIs aren't going to go to war with other AIs enough to seriously threaten your lead.

(Not that the AI knows any better about the Victory Conditions at higher levels, it's just crankier in general as the level increases not only against humans but other AIs)

I don't concern myself with Domination victory conditions in any game that also includes military based VPs.

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy I played this scenario on Deity and found that England never launched an invasion of any consequence. A few stray units (a stack of 4 was the biggest event) were all that crossed the channel. In this particular game I maintained only a few frigates, but never left cities empty (as that draws the PC like a moth to a flame no matter where and when). Two defenders were present at all times in the mainland (i.e. normally unthreatened) cities. My main point is that invading England may be a fun exercise, but it also seems too effortful and slow. I found the scenario fairly demanding in terms of the victory conditions and I had to take a large portion of the continent (including Prussia and Austria, but not Spain) to fulfill them. Had I taken on England instead I might have been slowed down too much. The transport by boat alone is effortful and slow and then the English units are formidable compared to the Grenzers and other weaklings that the continental forces muster. For France in this scenario, Spain is the most loyal non-forced ally. With the exception of the really weak nations, which are likely gone quickly, almost all others are fairly hostile and prone to ally against you.

	16-04-2005 00:14									#25
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Modo, are you saying you never attack an indiviudal unit when you have more chance of that unit losing than winning?

I am. I almost never attack with foot units without preparation (i.e. bombing the hell out of the defenders). I make sure I have artillery and fast-movers, to minimize losses. Attacking with foot units that can die that easy is suicidal in the long run. I want the enemy dead, not just hurt.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn even with you have a back up units in place to attack the hopefully weakened defender the same turn when your first attacker loses?

Even then, I would prefer fast-movers. The chance to lose valuable units is not to be taken lightly, as every piece counts.

Note that I always assume one plays on his/her apropriate level, which would probably be around Deity/Sid for you and me in this scenario. If I take it on Monarch, I bet I can win using exclusively Drafted Voltigeurs, but that does not prove anything. There is no argument if you go below your level of play (whatever that level is for each player), because in that case you can win whatever dumb fun things you do, so real strategy does not matter.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn The Life Guard would need to be 1/8th less expensive than the Imperial Guard to have the same cost effectiveness.

It is even a bit cheaper, going at 130 Shields compared to 150 Shields for the Imperial Gaurd. The exact ratio is 130/150 = 0.8(6), whereas 1/8 = 0.875.

Besides, if France is the attacker (as seems to be the case here), the Imperial Guard would have to be cheaper than the Lifegaurd to be as cost-effective, and that is not the case - not even close.

	16-04-2005 01:40									#26
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I was including both the attack and defens factor of both units.

If all I would ever do is attack with an IG and never defend, it might as well be 8/1/1.

If all I would ever do is defend with a LG and never attack, it might as well be 0/7/1.

I would definately give both the IG and LG both AI offense and AI defense flags. Which is probably the case, athough I haven't looked.

I would imagine that if the SP version of this conquest could be played in MP mode with these puppet states rather than attached to the indivudal nations, that the game would start out as a race by both England & France to knock out each others puppet states and then wipe out the other weaker nations before trying to seriously engaging each other. Whichever human was first would also have an edge. (Sign MA against England with all in addition to an MPP with all, the MPP to bring them back in if they try to leave early in five turns.)

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 It is even a bit cheaper, going at 130 Shields compared to 150 Shields for the Imperial Gaurd. The exact ratio is 130/150 = 0.8(6), whereas 1/8 = 0.875. Besides, if France is the attacker (as seems to be the case here), the Imperial Guard would have to be cheaper than the Lifegaurd to be as cost-effective, and that is not the case - not even close.

	16-04-2005 01:55									#27
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Talking about MP, you are not far from it, as this game shows: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=124194

Ok then, there is one more thing. Attacking Imperial Guards with Lifegaurds is plain old stupid (base attack lower than base defense of the attacked), so a player would naturally try not to do that. OTOH, Imperial Guards seem so strong one might feel the urge to use them more. Which is why I think Lifeguards are better - the pure psychological part does the trick. And it does so whichever of the two nations is human-controlled.

	16-04-2005 02:00									#28
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On speed of getting units across the English Channel, that's not an issue. While the troop carriers only have 3 MP [for non-Seafaring civs like France], there are three tiles that are coastal for both France and England. Load the units from the transport on the French city move onto that tile, drop them off and return the same turn. The English Men of War won't matter because your transport won't end movement outside of Port.

The real obsticle is yes, Englands units are second only to French.

I'm sure I could take Spain and most of the other powers in a cake walk. Annexing England without raizing would be more of a challenge.

Besides I already had one game where I took most of the contentint. (See the small print on the first post.)

	16-04-2005 02:20									#29
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That thread is hilarious.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Talking about MP, you are not far from it, as this game shows: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=124194

	16-04-2005 13:34									#30
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Haha well I guess it also depends on your own actions. I closed a number of RoP deals with Spain, using them to get to Portugal and Gibraltar initially, and later to have their units reinforce my own drive to the east. With the RoP on Spain's side and not on the Russian and Ottoman's, the Spanish units have the combat advantage against them as well. They need it BTW, as they have only weak Soldados and generic cavalry.
I never sign military alliances, as the 20 turns interval before being able to sign an 'honorable' peace treaty is too often unsuitable.
There aren't too many (relevant) nations who lend themselves to a somewhat reliable state of peace other than Spain though. I was initially hoping for Russia or the Ottomans, but somehow that didn't work out. Perhaps others have had more success with them?

On the boating issue: You will need a solid number of transports to land a proper invasion party, which detracts resources from building up the fighting force. Perhaps the tactic used here is to land an army first? I'm the guessing the computer would leave the army alone...

On the unhappiness thing: I bit the bullet and switched to Monarchy right from the start. I believe I made a quick comparison of my income and science output between the two governments and found that with the need for luxury % under Republic, it didn't offer any benefit at all. Perhaps this is different if you manage to get some fair lux trades going, but in my game the Ottomans (who hoard the most lux) were quite unwilling to trade even on very unfavorable terms... as were most others (not due to me breaking any deals by the way, I don't do that).

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn What??? In my game Spain was the first country to sign peace with Britian (breaking the MA against them.) I must admit that Austria was first to sign an embargo against me [with minor nation], but they broke their embargo when latter a different minor nation declared war on Austria forcing that minor nation to also declare war on Austria. I am currently perplexed at Spains movement actions. I needed a RoP with them and signed one, and while Austrian, Prussian, and Ottoman units crossed my territory heading into Spain (probably to the rock) Spain sent it's units across my territory and into Prussia.