22-04-2005 09:16									#31
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RAV4s are worthless as a truck or SUV plus they get worse gasmilage and handle worse then a car so what's the point of buying one? They are the ultimate in style over substance except their style seems to only appeal to tiny girls who can barely see over the steering wheel.

Or at least most of the people I see driving them are tiny women who looked like they needed a boost chair.

	22-04-2005 09:21									#32
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Probability of an Asian chick liking the RAV4 = 92%

yeah

except their style seems to only appeal to tiny girls who can barely see over the steering wheel.

yeah

	22-04-2005 09:27									#33
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Oerdin you don't see any Filipinos in the NBA do you??

	22-04-2005 09:44									#34
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Ted, it's funny, Filipinos love basketball and all the corporations have a team that plays for the PBA, Philippine Basketball Association. Each team is allowed only one foriegner, so you see one 7+ foot tall NBA washout running around with all these short Filipinos.

	22-04-2005 09:48									#35
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GM's going the way of the buffalo.

They have way too many platforms as a result of the outdated Sloan system.

They never got the continuous quality improvement thing down.

I wonder how much of those liabilities are pensions for previously laid-off workers?

Plus Toyota is opening two new US assembly plants in 2006 (San Antoino for full-size trucks, plus somewhere else) and looking to open two more by the end of the decade.

By 2010 Toyota, not GM, will be the world's largest auto maker, and they could do that without even counting on faster growth than GM in Asia.

	22-04-2005 10:00									#36
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I would much rather have bought American, however GM quality is the pits, Crysler, ditto, and Ford screwed me. I had 3 Fords in a row and was a loyal customer, but...I refuse to be screwed and keep prduct loyalty.

	22-04-2005 10:02									#37
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GM is actually growing very quickly in China and is now the sales leader in that country. The Chinese are normally buying their first car ever though so they aren't very demanding customers. GM could be in trouble in 10-20 year there when everyone has owned a car or two and is now looking for quality. For now though China is a big plus for GM.

In an event the company won't die though at worse it will kill a few divisions and fire some management. Toyota and Honda's biggest advantage is they don't have 100 years worth of employee pensions to pay for while the big three do but each passing year brings those costs closer to parity. My guess is GM will have to kill Pontiac or Buick in the next decade and it won't be able to keep both GMC and Hummer once the SUV crazy dies out especially since Chevy also sells a full line of trucks.

Eventually the board of directors will figure out that it is best to have engineers and car guys who know about cars run a car company. Olds was run into the ground because they had a series of marketing types and accountants who used to make consumer goods like toasters and microwaves instead of people who knew what it took to make desirable cars. There is no passion when people buy a toaster but buying a car is both an emotional and a logical decision for people since it is the second largest purchase most people ever make (after their house). The Pontiac G6 shows how designers can come up with a great design but the details will get attacked by the accountants and the middle men until the finished product is a third rate car. On paper it still looks good but sit in one and it looks and feels cheap. If they got some management who had balls to go after risky but high reward design and they cut the worthless middle men out of the decision making process GM could make some great vehicles. The current management is to hide bound to corporate tradition to do that though so the sooner they're gone the better.

	22-04-2005 11:35									#38
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Good riddance. Yanks have been too long in the grip of crappy cars.

	22-04-2005 11:37									#39
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DAMN

Doesn't even look like a Beamer, and actually a little phallic, but I really like it.

	22-04-2005 11:40									#40
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THAT'S a sixer for ya

	22-04-2005 11:42									#41
	Re: Is GM going bankrupt? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS You heard it first here. It looks to me like it is. The company's $300 billion in debt is about to be cut to junk status by the ratings agencies, dramatically raising its cost of money. The market seems to be pricing in something like a bankruptcy, since the market capitalization for the entire company is only $15 billion. But more importantly, GM's lineup of cars are shitty. I rented a Chevy Malibu over Christmas and it felt like I was getting into a brand new $20,000 piece of trash. Maybe these are very reliable pieces of trash, but there you are. Does anybody have any countervailing evidence? When the **** hits the fan, this one's going to be really ugly in the business and political worlds.

DanS I've been predicting their demise for over 10 years now but for some reason this behemoth seems to float along and even reinvent themselves.

Nobody buys their crap here in Cali (except those annoying Hummers, which are EVERYWHERE), but apparently in the heartland they still sell very well.

Pontiac has had the crappiest quality of all the GM brands, but this year they actually have two good good looking models, the GTO and the Roadster.

Although, these two models both look like "me-too" copies of the Nissan Maxima and the Z.

	22-04-2005 11:43									#42
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Also interesting that Chevy introduced the Cobalt, which looks like it's designed the compete against the Honda Civic (by trying to be a Honda Civic with more horsepower).

	22-04-2005 11:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Saras THAT'S a sixer for ya

I'd hit it.

	22-04-2005 11:48									#44
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What, this doesn't turn you on?

Attachment: malibu.jpg
This has been downloaded 139 time(s).

	22-04-2005 11:49									#45
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BACK AT YA!

	22-04-2005 13:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What, this doesn't turn you on?

I've gone flaccid!

	22-04-2005 13:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saras THAT'S a sixer for ya

quote: SEATTLE, Washington (Reuters) -- A 17 year-old high school student faked the theft of his 2002 BMW M3 in order to collect insurance money to upgrade to a Bentley, police said on Thursday

From http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/21/cr...reut/index.html

What - did you say- happened to your BMW?

	22-04-2005 15:19									#49
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro From http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/21/cr...reut/index.html What - did you say- happened to your BMW?

	22-04-2005 17:38									#50
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The GM case is a good example of american manufacturing deficiencies. And this is not due to underestimated foreign currencies, nor to abnormal subsidies made by foreign economies, but only to american failures. The PIB will soon be made only by retail trade, banking, insurance, lawyers, and the military industry (manufacturing and services). Hard to imagine how the trade deficit could decrease.

	22-04-2005 18:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What, this doesn't turn you on?

Ugh. Even German cars don't look that much like a concrete block.

	22-04-2005 19:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I can support your position, I finally broke down and bought a foreign car a year ago. I now drive a Toyota. Ford screwed me over but good and Dolores thought the RAV4 was 'cute'...the rest is history. My last GM car was a Chevy Celebrity. That was the end of that.

Rav4 is a great car!

	22-04-2005 19:09									#53
	Re: Is GM going bankrupt? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS You heard it first here. It looks to me like it is. The company's $300 billion in debt is about to be cut to junk status by the ratings agencies, dramatically raising its cost of money. The market seems to be pricing in something like a bankruptcy, since the market capitalization for the entire company is only $15 billion. But more importantly, GM's lineup of cars are shitty. I rented a Chevy Malibu over Christmas and it felt like I was getting into a brand new $20,000 piece of trash. Maybe these are very reliable pieces of trash, but there you are. Does anybody have any countervailing evidence? When the **** hits the fan, this one's going to be really ugly in the business and political worlds.

I've been thinking along these lines for about a year now, and not just GM. Ford isn't looking too strong, either, but GM's problems seem especially acute.

	22-04-2005 20:01									#54
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"Rav4 is a great car!"

It seems to be very well built Ata. Also it has one of the best quality ratings...at least that's what the dealer said.

	22-04-2005 20:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ugh. Even German cars don't look that much like a concrete block.

Coming from a frenchman whose nations crowning achievement in car building is the abomination called megane

	22-04-2005 20:13									#56
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The new Corvette looks great.

	22-04-2005 20:14									#57
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There are too many stupid Americans for GM to go bankrupt.

	22-04-2005 20:24									#58
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It's their UAW contract that killing them. It offers no flexibility. If you lay off a worker and still have to pay them 95% of their salary through the end of the current contract (2007) it's hard to stream line operations.
Average salary around 46,000 with benfits around 28,000. Makes it damn hard to compete.

Maybe bankrupcy isn't that bad.

There are still plenty of Americans that think buying GM is good for America.

	22-04-2005 20:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Coming from a frenchman whose nations crowning achievement in car building is the abomination called megane

* Spiffor madly frothes at the mouth

I hate the guts of these new Renaults. They are monstrous, and they're the one reason I could possibly not buy a Renault the day I buy a car.

	22-04-2005 22:33									#60
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quote: The GM case is a good example of american manufacturing deficiencies. And this is not due to underestimated foreign currencies, nor to abnormal subsidies made by foreign economies, but only to american failures. The PIB will soon be made only by retail trade, banking, insurance, lawyers, and the military industry (manufacturing and services). Hard to imagine how the trade deficit could decrease.

As a reality check, despite it all, the US manufactures by far the most goods by value of any country in the world.

The US has plenty of strengths. However, GM is not among them.