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What do you think about the proposed contest?
This poll is closed. |
| I am interested in submitting a scenario |
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11 |
42.31% |
| I am not interested in submitting a scenario |
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9 |
34.62% |
| I am willing to help the judging by poll |
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14 |
53.85% |
| I am willing to help the judging by review |
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11 |
42.31% |
| I am uninterested in helping with the judging |
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1 |
3.85% |
| I am happy with the choice of a scenario set on a map of India |
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15 |
57.69% |
| To be honest, I would prefer a different map |
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6 |
23.08% |
| Total: |
26 voters |
100% |
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Panda
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Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
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With the original discussion thread lost and the replacement thread nearly off the front page, I thought it time to find out where things stood with people in a poll. This is to find out how many people are interested in designing a scenario for the contest, how many people are willing to judge the submissions and how, and if the consensus on the basis of the contest is acceptable or a turn-off, so please vote honestly.
Edit: you can cast multiple votes 
Last edited by Panda on 23-04-2005 at 08:11
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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:36
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I've just started work on the Contest Page for the new SL site. I'm working from memory on what we decided re: the rules, so please let me know if I'm off base on anything.
1. Entries must use Civilization 2. Fantastic Worlds, Gold Edition and Test of Time are all acceptable versions.
2. The subject is India, historical or fictional - past, present or future.
3. A map of the Indian sub-continent, supplied by Mercator, MUST be used. Otherwise, contestants have a free hand.
4. Deadline for registration - Nov 30, 2005. Deadline for submissions - Dec 31, 2005. Deadline for judging - Jan 31, 2006. (I arbitrarily set these deadlines. Let me know it they're ok)
5. Chief judge is techumseh, who may be assisted by one or more assistant judges, who are not contestants. Each contestant must judge 2 other entries, assigned by the chief judge.
6. All judges must use a supplied detailed scoring key to evaluate each entry.
7. All members (including contestants) may vote for the "People's Choice Award", which is awarded separately. Voting for PCA will take place during January, 2006.
8. Any member of SL, except the official judges, may enter the contest. To qualify, a potential contestant must submit a usable tip or scenario review for the SL website, or an article for SL magazine between May1/05 and Nov 30/05. (lots of advice and editing assistance can be provided- just ask)
9. Contestants are free to use any graphics, sounds, etc. from any source. Entries using the graphics or other work of others that is not properly attributed will be disqualified.
One controversy we didn't settle was whether or not code names should be assigned. I'm for it because it adds an air of mystery that's really quite fun. There's lot's of guessing while the voting is going on. Other opinions?
In my experience, people need about 6 months to get a scenario together for a contest, which is why I used the deadline timeframes I did.
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Panda
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Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
I've just started work on the Contest Page for the new SL site. I'm working from memory on what we decided re: the rules, so please let me know if I'm off base on anything.
< snip >
6. All judges must use a supplied detailed scoring key to evaluate each entry. |
Well I'd prefer a full review with its scored categories as being more meaningful for feedback, development and debate, but I can accept this as the majority view.
quote:
8. Any member of SL, except the official judges, may enter the contest. To qualify, a potential contestant must submit a usable tip or scenario review for the SL website, or an article for SL magazine between May1/05 and Nov 30/05. (lots of advice and editing assistance can be provided- just ask) |
I don't recall this motion being seconded, and the entry should be open to all regardless. I thought that was the point?
quote:
One controversy we didn't settle was whether or not code names should be assigned. I'm for it because it adds an air of mystery that's really quite fun. There's lot's of guessing while the voting is going on. Other opinions? |
I don't recall much discussion on this, but I agree with Mercator that they should not be used as a) the designer has to edit supporting texts to remove references to the author, b) conflicts of interest in the judging would be transparent, and c) I think we're all mature enough not to pre-judge or adveresly judge an entry because of its author.
quote:
In my experience, people need about 6 months to get a scenario together for a contest, which is why I used the deadline timeframes I did. |
Yes, it's nearly May now.
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Panda
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Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
Maybe last year's winner should pick this year's topic or winner? Now who was it who won? His/her name eludes me for the moment.
Maybe the theme (whatever it turns out to be eventually) of the SDC contest should be narrowed somewhat to allow less subjective judging. |
Hi Kobi,
Well the plan is to have the whole community participate in the judging, either using Tech's scoring key or by SL review format (which is inching ahead in the poll, I'm happy to see) which, while still subjective to an extent, would be objective.
The original discussion thread was lost in the crash, but I provided a link to the cached version, and there was another thread which is near the bottom of page 2. Tech simply made a coherent suggestion as to theme and organization that we've mostly agreed to, but we've broadened the theme. Did you have a preference the last time a contest was mooted? I can't remember, and can't look it up...
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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:36
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quote:
*Historical Accuracy refers to accurately representing a historical, mythological or fictional account of India. Players may write their own fictional account, which must be included in the Readme file.
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I'm not sure you read this far. I happy to take it out, but that puts those who try to represent a historical, mythological, or fiction-based scenario at a disadvantage. These scenarios are lots more work.
What if someone just puts the Zulu, Aztec and American civs on a map of India? I don't think they should get the same score as someone who at least comes up with a plausable fictional scenario.
Any ideas on how to capture that in a scoring guide? The idea is to reward those who have a coherent concept for their scenario. Maybe I should restate it, since I don't really mean historical in a strict sense.
Both sounds and graphics are given very low points in this scoring guideline, as per our earlier discussion about emphasising playability and technical skill.
True, not all designers use sounds, but not all provide Readme files and not all use events either. IMHO, the contest should cover all aspects of civ and scenario design, which includes sound.
Those are my opinions, but I am the servant of the community, and will reflect it's wishes.
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beingofone
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U.S.A.
Apr 2003
time: 05:36
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Someone once said that " A giraffe looks like it was put together by a committee, its neck to long, head to small, and legs way to long. "
Someone has to make decisions otherwise it will go into limbo land and endless discussion. Techumseh is just trying to get the ball rolling. I am sure before the rules are final he will listen and be open to ideas.
Here are my ideas
I think the graphics should only be worth 1 point because I am graphically challenged. Ancient history should score a bonus of 50 points. 
Just Kidding
Last edited by beingofone on 26-04-2005 at 14:26
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Leonidas
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I have to agree with Curt on his two above posts:
Leave the design of the scenario open - let imaginations rule the day...
And I always play with sounds on.
For me playing a Civ 2 scenario is a visual, auditory and tactile experience...
[homer]Mmmmm... keyboard... mouse....[/homer]
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Panda
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Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
I'm not sure you read this far. I happy to take it out, but that puts those who try to represent a historical, mythological, or fiction-based scenario at a disadvantage. These scenarios are lots more work.
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I apologise, as I hadn't read that footnote at the time.
Edit: and I apologise again as innovation is weighted equally with accuracy, I guess factual and fiction are on a level playing field.
(Edi: or did this mean technically innovative with the game mechanics?)
I guess there is always a question of emphasis, and my personal tastes are not so different from your own, merely less prescriptive. Ergo:
Environment - 30%
Inc Graphics, Sounds, parameters, all text files bar events.
Playability - 50%
Inc events, bugs, map, early game, mid game, end game, replayability, technical innovations
Innovation and General care - 20%
inc accuracy, documentation
I like that you'd stressed the importance of playability throughout, and that if a scenario became tedious mid-game and is simply never completed then that should be reflected in the judging. Replayability is more a minor thing, such as alternative factions/starting positions/difficulties, even alternative scenario files (*.alt). Playability should be a trump: as long as the gameplay continues to be enjoyable it shouldn't really matter about even glaring errors. Remember ColdWarX?
As a designer intending to compete I'd appreciate comments for each as a justification, and that all scorings should be made public when judging has closed. And that is all I have to say.
Last edited by Panda on 26-04-2005 at 23:19
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techumseh
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of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
time: 22:36
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OK, I want to make sure everyone knows what I'm proposing and are OK with it. I want to level the playing field for new scenario designers, to encourage them to enter the contest. So here's what I'm suggesting:
If you have never posted a scenario, here or elsewhere, you are a Beginner, and your score will be multiplied by 1.5.
If you have only posted one scenario, here or elsewhere, you are an Intermediate, and your score will be multiplied by 1.25.
I don't want any complaints after the contest results are announced that this is unfair. Read the fine print!
Last edited by techumseh on 27-04-2005 at 20:49
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Mercator
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Sorekara no Nanimo
Jan 1970
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
That looks about right. |
OK 
quote:
Could you economise on wasted space if you rotated the map ~45 degrees to the right? |
Sure, that's possible.
quote:
A medium size map would be best, as the work increases in proportion to the area covered. Also the AI can only work properly on maps of a reasonable size. |
Well, the AI shouldn't start having problems until the map is much, much bigger... But you're right about a bigger map increasing the amount of work, obviously. My main concern, though, is that I'm hardly familiar with Indian history. That means I don't really have any idea what sort of scenarios people could come up with, or how important certain regions or cities are. Making the map too small might make certain topics unworkable.
quote:
How long do you need? |
 A month (or two)?
quote:
Originally posted by N35t0r
I won't be able to touch it until after this weekend, and even then I won't hae lots of free time, but I'm willing to work on it... |
How long do you think it would take you? And if you're going to do it, you don't have to use that image and sketch I provided earlier. You just make the map from scratch as you would normally do it.
quote:
[edit:] Merc, what projection is that? It looks squished... |
It's the Lambert Azimuthal projection. I chose it because (a) the website I use has it and (b) it's an equal-area projection.
quote:
[edit 2:] Do you actually take the tiles to measure the same horizontally as vertically? |
Yes, I do take tiles to be the same size horizontally as vertically, as it should be, IMNSHO. I make my maps to look natural in the radar map. They look squished on the main map, because you're looking at in a bird's eye view.
@techumseh: I think the handicapping system is good.
But um, yes, our_man is quite right. I don't really know what the "optimal" values could be...
I'm with Panda on the scoring, though. I'd prefer something less prescriptive. But you also have good points. Perhaps graphics and sounds can be combined into art, and rules, events and scenario parameters combined into, um, technical implementation or something... I'm thinking, say, something halfway between your proposal and the way SLeague scenario reviews have been done.
In any case, I think it's essential that the judges also give a short motivation for their choices. Not just a list of points. I think requiring a motivation will ensure subjectivity more than detailed scoring will.
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