25-04-2005 10:13									#61
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Right, my mistake...I always get those two mixed up, like when I forgot which one wrote "Puff the Magic Dragon"

	25-04-2005 10:15									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Wow I thought Christ was the heart of the church, and he affirms the beauty of the union between a man and a woman in marriage. I don't see where he tells married people they have sinned.

You're right: for example, Christ doesn't tell married people that they've sinned if they've used birth control to limit the size of their family to a number they can actually support. For that matter, it's hard to picture Christ insisting that it's better for a man to infect his wife with AIDS than to protect her by using a prophylactic.

The Church, on the other hand, believes both those things.

Never, ever, confuse Christ and the Church, Ben.

	25-04-2005 10:16									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Christ

Church

	25-04-2005 10:19									#64
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Lancer Zkrib, I watched a show that blamed the Catholics for the notion that MM was a hooker, but I don't know. I also can't imagine what they stood to gain by such a position.

It wasn't merely the Catholics. It was the whole ancient Church. According to some, the reason is because of the split between Peter (and Paul) and Mary . . . Anyway, Peter wanted to lead the disciples but Mary had a strong following as well as her own Gospel tradition, which taught differently. In order for one view to win out, the other needed to be discreditted.

What they did was take the woman who was being stoned and say she was Mary, though there is nothing in the Gospels that suggests that this is true. Mary was also a common name, and the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair was also named Mary. So the Church just conflated them. Basically, any woman was wasn't Jesus' mother, also named Mary, was now the Magdelene.

Since Magdelene was now an ex-whore, she lost credibility as an apostle.

	25-04-2005 10:20									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Christ Church

Christchurch!

	25-04-2005 10:20									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Yeah, but how many of them were former pagan Goddesses?

Dunno. St. Theresa of Avila? St. Therese of the child Jesus? St. Teresa of Portugal?

And that's just one name, off the top of my head.

How many of them are real live women who lived their faith?

	25-04-2005 10:24									#67
	Got spare money?

quote: Christ doesn't tell married people that they've sinned if they've used birth control to limit the size of their family to a number they can actually support. For that matter, it's hard to picture Christ insisting that it's better for a man to infect his wife with AIDS than to protect her by using a prophylactic.

People always have disagreed with Christ. I can't see him insisting that we should defile ourselves by eating with pagans. Or that we should all give our money to the poor.

What I do see him is affirming that the proper place for eros is in marriage, in the union of one man with one woman. All else falls short of that ideal, as sin.

	25-04-2005 10:27									#68
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

We are talking about the Catholic Church that forbids women to become priests, right?

	25-04-2005 10:29									#69
	Put an end to popups!

Nope.

Female saints in Catholicism.

Why would anyone consider being a priest to be advantageous? It's hard work!

	25-04-2005 10:31									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Nope. Female saints in Catholicism.

Um... I asked about female PRIESTS... not saints. Stop avoiding the question, Ben.

quote: Why would anyone consider being a priest to be advantageous? It's hard work!

Ah, the same sort of misogyny which drove similar statements dealing with why would women consider being a CEO to be advantageous... it's hard work, after all.

	25-04-2005 10:31									#71
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you got the calling, you got the calling. I had the calling, but then two years later God told me to become Jewish. So God apparently was crazy, since I couldn't both be an Episcopalian priest and a Jew.

	25-04-2005 10:37									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

Imran:

you are talking about that, but that is not the topic at hand.

quote: Ah, the same sort of misogyny which drove similar statements dealing with why would women consider being a CEO to be advantageous... it's hard work, after all.

So becoming a priest has a financial incentive? That I don't see. If your motive as a woman is to gain financial status, the last job you want is to be a priest.

I suggest you answer my question Imran. What are the advantages to being a priest?

	25-04-2005 10:37									#73
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you got the calling, you got the calling. I had the calling, but then two years later God told me to become Jewish. So God apparently was crazy, since I couldn't both be an Episcopalian priest and a Jew.

I'm pretty sure that the lightening strikes and hurricanes have shown you He likes to **** with you.

And Ben: Good ignorance of those quotes. How is it not misogynistic?

	25-04-2005 10:44									#74
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What are the advantages to being a priest?

Unfettered access to the altar boys?

Sorry, Ben, but really. If I woke up in the morning to find myself a Catholic priest, I'd wallop myself by reflex. Some things are just too grusome for man to forgive.

	25-04-2005 10:44									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Do your own work EF

	25-04-2005 10:44									#76
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What I do see him is affirming that the proper place for eros is in marriage, in the union of one man with one woman. All else falls short of that ideal, as sin.

Did Jesus actually say that? If he never actually said that then you aree assuming, aren't you?

	25-04-2005 10:45									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: you are talking about that, but that is not the topic at hand.

When talking about whether the Church does not appreciate women... it damn well is the topic at hand.

quote: So becoming a priest has a financial incentive? That I don't see. If your motive as a woman is to gain financial status, the last job you want is to be a priest. I suggest you answer my question Imran. What are the advantages to being a priest?

My lord, you are a Grade A idiot. If there are no advantages to being a priest, why are there priests at all? Do you think that women don't get the calling? Are they not able to?

Being a priest is important if you feel that you want to serve God by preaching his Gospel within the Church. Why would you deny women that?

Why are you trying to hide your misogyny using arguments that women-bashers haven't used for years?

	25-04-2005 10:45									#78
	Suffering from ads?

...how is it not?

How is saying that a woman is a man's property and that she should not speak in assembly or hold any authority over a man not misogynistic?

	25-04-2005 10:47									#79
	Got spare money?

Capt. Dizle:

quote: Unfettered access to the altar boys?

So women want to be priests in order to molest the altar boys?

An intriguing hypothesis!

	25-04-2005 10:47									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Yes, in fact, it does 1 Co 14:34 As in all the churches of God's holy people, women are to remain quiet in the assemblies, since they have no permission to speak: theirs is a subordinate part. 1 Co 14:35 If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly. 1 Tm 2:11-12 During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet.

The thing about all those quotes is: not one of them quotes Christ; they're all from Paul's letters.

Honestly, I think Christianity might have become a beautiful religion if Paul hadn't gotten a hold of it. Now it's not even Christianity -- it's Paulism.

	25-04-2005 10:47									#81
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh, of course a woman can't get a calling to be a priest or preacher; can't you read your Bible nimwit?

	25-04-2005 10:48									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: How is saying that a woman is a man's property and that she should not speak in assembly or hold any authority over a man not misogynistic?

Where does scripture say that a woman is the property of the man?

Does it not say, that each wife is to have her own husband, and each husband, his own wife?

	25-04-2005 10:49									#83
	Support Apolyton

I didn't say they were from Christ, did I?

My point was that the Catholic Church had a thing against women. When Ben challenged that, I said that it was in the Bible that women shouldn't do this or that. Those quotes show it. But of course there's a difference between the Bible and what Jesus said - that's the point, it was a Catholic thing

Pay attention.

	25-04-2005 10:51									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Where does scripture say that a woman is the property of the man? Does it not say, that each wife is to have her own husband, and each husband, his own wife?

Well, according to Paul...

Ep 5:22-24
Wives should be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is the husband the head of his wife.
And as the Church is subject to Christ, so should wives be to their husbands, in everything.

	25-04-2005 10:52									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Emperor Fabulous:

Okay, that's good. You have three parts.

Now, where does it say that to have the subordinate position is inferior? Doesn't Christ say, that the greatest among you must be servant to all?

	25-04-2005 10:52									#86
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Capt. Dizle: So women want to be priests in order to molest the altar boys? An intriguing hypothesis!

Everyone wants to molest the altar boys! I was a Methodist altar boy; I lit the candles. Please, ladies only, call 1-800-Molest-me-please.

	25-04-2005 10:56									#87
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I didn't say they were from Christ, did I? My point was that the Catholic Church had a thing against women. When Ben challenged that, I said that it was in the Bible that women shouldn't do this or that. Those quotes show it. But of course there's a difference between the Bible and what Jesus said - that's the point, it was a Catholic thing Pay attention.

I'm agreeing with you, EF; my comment was not directed at you but at those here who would conflate the teachings of Christ and Christianity. Sorry for the confusion.

	25-04-2005 10:56									#88
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oerdin:

quote: Did Jesus actually say that? If he never actually said that then you aree assuming, aren't you?

This is what he says:

Matthew 19:4-6

quote: “Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

That seems pretty clear to me. He is affirming marriage, rather than condoning unions outside of marriage.

	25-04-2005 10:58									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Well, according to Paul... Ep 5:22-24 Wives should be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is the husband the head of his wife. And as the Church is subject to Christ, so should wives be to their husbands, in everything.

Well, its like this, if a woman disobeys her husband openly; so shall the children. If a woman honors her husband; so shall the children. If a man honors his family; Christ shall so be honored.

the gospel according to Diz....

	25-04-2005 11:00									#90
	TEF Remove this text

quote: Wives should be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is the husband the head of his wife. And as the Church is subject to Christ, so should wives be to their husbands, in everything.

Read on a little bit.

Paul goes on to say:

quote: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.

quote: However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Where does it say that the woman must love her husband? How is any of this misogyny?