25-04-2005 11:01									#91
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quote: Now, where does it say that to have the subordinate position is inferior? Doesn't Christ say, that the greatest among you must be servant to all?

So I guess slaves should have been happy with their station. After all, they were servents of whitefolk.

Then again, the Bible never condemns slavery.

	25-04-2005 11:04									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Now, where does it say that to have the subordinate position is inferior? Doesn't Christ say, that the greatest among you must be servant to all? So I guess slaves should have been happy with their station. After all, they were servents of whitefolk. Then again, the Bible never condemns slavery.

Now, why do you want to make slavery an issue of race. Slaves were historically of all races. You are throwing baskets of red herring all over the issue Imran.

	25-04-2005 11:04									#93
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quote: Where does it say that the woman must love her husband? How is any of this misogyny?

It is the husband that is held as the only power in the relationship. The husband is charged with responsibilies to love their wives and treat them good. The wife is not, because she is assumed to have no power and she needs to be taken care of because she cannot do so for her own.

Same stuff is said in the Koran. All it leads to is the belief that men are superior to women.

	25-04-2005 11:04									#94
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Now as for my previous quote, from 1 Cor 7:2, still Apostle Paul here.

quote: But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

This is a fundamental equality, in the husband belonging to his wife, as a wife belongs to her husband, and contradicts the earlier notion that even as one is subordinate, that this confers a lesser value.

	25-04-2005 11:05									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Capt Dizle Now, why do you want to make slavery an issue of race. Slaves were historically of all races. You are throwing baskets of red herring all over the issue Imran.

Cause that is what it was in North America where Ben is from. And, furthermore, Christendom has, historically, been centered in Europe... where the people are, indeed, white.

You can replace 'whitefolk' with whatever you want... same thing applies.

	25-04-2005 11:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi This is a fundamental equality, in the husband belonging to his wife, as a wife belongs to her husband, and contradicts the earlier notion that even as one is subordinate, that this confers a lesser value.

So that one part overrides the other parts which confer inferiority to the women? Because it says the husband belong to the women, all those other words conferring an inferior place to the woman don't matter?

Please...

Once again, similar stuff in the Koran, but we see where that has led in the Mid East.

	25-04-2005 11:08									#97
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quote: It is the husband that is held as the only power in the relationship. The husband is charged with responsibilies to love their wives and treat them good. The wife is not, because she is assumed to have no power and she needs to be taken care of because she cannot do so for her own.

Where does it say that? It says that the two become one flesh, so there is no longer two, but one.

How can there be only one with power, and one without, if the two are now one?

That's the point here. It's really hard to understand because it is so radical, and different to what we think of things.

In a marriage anything the husband would do to his wife, also is done to himself. This is why Paul talks about men loving themselves, and not wanting to harm their own bodies.

For to hurt their wife is no different than for a man to hurt himself.

Secondly, if we take the position that the subordinate is no less valuable than the head, then it is possible for both to be equal in value, but different in function.

quote: Same stuff is said in the Koran. All it leads to is the belief that men are superior to women.

Where does the Koran say, each woman is to have her own husband, as if the husband was owned by his wife?

	25-04-2005 11:10									#98
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The Bible says what it says Imran; please take notice, your subscription has been canceled.

	25-04-2005 11:13									#99
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quote: So I guess slaves should have been happy with their station. After all, they were servents of whitefolk. Then again, the Bible never condemns slavery.

Marriage is entered into voluntarily. Slavery is completely different.

quote: So that one part overrides the other parts which confer inferiority to the women? Because it says the husband belong to the women, all those other words conferring an inferior place to the woman don't matter?

Where does it say that a subordinate position is inferior?

That was my earlier question and is essential to your point. Christ does not see things the way men see things, and that the lesser in status is no lesser in value.

	25-04-2005 11:16									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Marriage is entered into voluntarily. Slavery is completely different.

Not when the Bible was written, it wasn't...

	25-04-2005 11:28									#101
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quote: How can there be only one with power, and one without, if the two are now one?

Because they don't really mean that two become one, do they? Woman are charged with obedience and men get to make the decisions and, oh, they are told they should be nice to their wives as well.

quote: if we take the position that the subordinate is no less valuable than the head

That's an idiotic position. The subordinate MEANS being less valuable.

quote: Where does the Koran say, each woman is to have her own husband, as if the husband was owned by his wife?

Koran 30:21 - Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

Allah created spouses for males and females. If God created your spouse for you, then each spouse owns the other.

	25-04-2005 11:31									#102
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quote: Marriage is entered into voluntarily. Slavery is completely different.

As Rufus points out, it decidedly wasn't. Fathers married off their daughters without taking their views into account. This sort of thing went on until the Renaissance when marriage for romance came into vogue.

quote: Where does it say that a subordinate position is inferior?

quote: hrist does not see things the way men see things, and that the lesser in status is no lesser in value.

Hence my slave question. I guess they should be happy where they are, because lesser in status doesn't mean they are lesser in value. No reason for them to rise up and overthrow the slavery system or anything.

	25-04-2005 11:39									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly The thing about all those quotes is: not one of them quotes Christ; they're all from Paul's letters. Honestly, I think Christianity might have become a beautiful religion if Paul hadn't gotten a hold of it. Now it's not even Christianity -- it's Paulism.

I believe we can safely say that PAul was just a man with lots of opinions and that the important part of Christianity is what Christ said not what Paul said.

	25-04-2005 11:40									#104
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But what did Christ actually say?

	25-04-2005 11:44									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That seems pretty clear to me. He is affirming marriage, rather than condoning unions outside of marriage.

Ned had a very interesting article about early Israeli culture. Often people would "get married" when there was no rabbi around and "marriage" was simply said to happen when a couple had sex. The first girl you screwed was your wife and any other girls you screwed made you guilty of adultery (bizzarly a special exception was allowed for hookers; meaning guys could screw hookers without commiting adultery).

The fact that a couple were having sex meant they were married not that the rabbi had blessed it or that the state had granted a licence.

	25-04-2005 11:44									#106
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would it matter? yes

why? the catholic church says he wasnt married and if he left a bloodline, that bloodline would have greater claim to represent him than paul or the church.

is there evidence? yes, in the NT we're told jesus attended a wedding at cana where he turned water into wine. the problem is supplying wine at the wedding was the groom's duty. so why did others request he supply wine? that wasn't his job unless of course he was the groom. even one of the people attending the wedding came to him after trying the wine asking why the groom saved the best wine for last.

	25-04-2005 12:05									#107
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ben

quote: That seems pretty clear to me. He is affirming marriage, rather than condoning unions outside of marriage.

you keep ignoring the context, jesus was asked about divorce law and his response was limited to marriage and divorce, not when sex should be allowed. he didnt condemn sex outside of marriage in that passage, he changed an immoral OT divorce law that allowed men to discard wives for no good reason.

	25-04-2005 12:09									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker would it matter? yes why? the catholic church says he wasnt married and if he left a bloodline, that bloodline would have greater claim to represent him than paul or the church. is there evidence? yes, in the NT we're told jesus attended a wedding at cana where he turned water into wine. the problem is supplying wine at the wedding was the groom's duty. so why did others request he supply wine? that wasn't his job unless of course he was the groom. even one of the people attending the wedding came to him after trying the wine asking why the groom saved the best wine for last.

OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Now it all makes sense.

I'd never thought of that angle. Nice work.

	25-04-2005 13:24									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I believe we can safely say that PAul was just a man with lots of opinions and that the important part of Christianity is what Christ said not what Paul said.

On the contrary, I think if you look at the nature of Christianity as professed, especially by conservative Christians, you'll find much more Paul than Jesus.

	25-04-2005 13:40									#110
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Jesus changed my life. The hell with the details, I'll ask about them when I get to heaven. If I still give a damn...

I doubt I will. Maybe though... alot of questions are worth knowing the answer to. Like the slavery bit. I wonder if the answer is that this life is so temporary that a lifetime of slavery is just a blink of an eye, focus on salvation whoever you are, and everything will be ok in the end. Might be a different answer all together though...

All the hot air expended on unknowable questions and after it cools, what is gained?

Faith...

	25-04-2005 19:15									#111
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Were it the dominant interpretation one could easily see the changes.

Priests having to be celibate - out
Women able to have a equal part in the church - in
A larger role for women in society - In
Problematic family structures in low productivity eras - In

The effects would have been dramatic to civilization. For good or bad thats open to interpretation.

As for it proving Jesus human, duh that was the purpose of Jesus on earth. Divinity in human form experienceing first hand the human experience. I see no reason that Jesus being married and siring children in anyway negates the supposition of his divinity. Neither does it affirm it.

	25-04-2005 19:22									#112
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I'm pretty sure that the lightening strikes and hurricanes have shown you He likes to **** with you.

Don't forget the serial killers.