26-04-2005 03:30									#1
	The Planetary Peace Conference - our negotiating stance Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

go here to sit in on Council proceedings

first order of business seems to be the agreement to a cease-fire:

quote: tabled by chairman IT GeoModder at the Peace Conference Also, since this Conference could finally start, I like to request on all warring factions if they're prepared to cease hostilities as long as this Conference is in session. This to create an atmosphere in which our undoubtedly lengthy conversations wouldn't be overshadowed by more suffering and hardship of common people in your respective lands.

I propose that we agree to a cessation of hostilities on both our Gaian and Morganic fronts

(It might need a comment to the Gaians to the effect that our troops currently on their west coast territory have no hostile intent - simply healing after our incursion into Hiveland (borrowing a monolith, so to speak)

	26-04-2005 05:28									#2
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Yes, ceasefire sounds good. I would then suggest that the Morganites make their payments up to date with regards to the ethcalc trade, and they resume payments on that until it is all paid off. A formal apology for the mind controlling of the hunter and a promise to strictly adhere to the Modo Doctrine would be in order. As for the Gaians, I would be happy with just a simple truce.

	26-04-2005 10:19									#3
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Well. I don't think we should even agree to a temporary truce with the Morgans until the matter of payments to the ethcalc trade is resolved, lump sum. We are the ones who are "winning" this war, and an immediate end to it seems to benifit everyone but us long term, so why agree to an unconditional cease-fire right away?

If I were roleplaying this, I would definately assume a bullying role since, quite frankly, we could take down any of these factions

	26-04-2005 11:18									#4
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We do not need to sign a Truce, but we do need to stop fighting Morgan.

	26-04-2005 16:29									#5
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direct end of hostilities with gaians and only stopping hostilities with morgan after they pay the stuff they owe us...atleast that is my opinion do with it what you want...i need to take care of some bunnies

	26-04-2005 21:22									#6
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Cease-fire and the recognition of the Modo-Doctrine (which the Corporation did in private, we should perhaps mention that in public along an agreement to a cease-fire?) sounds good to me.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Well. I don't think we should even agree to a temporary truce with the Morgans until the matter of payments to the ethcalc trade is resolved, lump sum. We are the ones who are "winning" this war, and an immediate end to it seems to benifit everyone but us long term, so why agree to an unconditional cease-fire right away? If I were roleplaying this, I would definately assume a bullying role since, quite frankly, we could take down any of these factions

I would have agreed with this until last turn. Before we could use the bullying argument that with every extra turn of war between us, the Corporation is losing more assets per turn than they would lose by simply paying us the remainder of the EthCalc deal.

But now DAP is widespread in the world (or soon will be), we've lost any leverage we have as far as I can see. Can we still take down any of these factions, or perform raids on their lands unpunished?? Personally I doubt it.

	26-04-2005 21:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac But now DAP is widespread in the world (or soon will be), we've lost any leverage we have as far as I can see. Can we still take down any of these factions, or perform raids on their lands unpunished?? Personally I doubt it.

Not until we can get carrier decks and put Interceptors with our noodles

And how about selling D:AP to the PK's - that way we nmight get a different tech in return after they switch

And to the Angels (before morgan does so?)

	26-04-2005 21:36									#8
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Maniac, we all know we can and will not attack Morgan now that the Corporation has planes. However, they might not be so sure, as we have shown in the past that we are ready to sacrifice material to complete objectives (like destroying the PTS). So, while not attacking and staying nice with the peace talks and all, we can still bully people. Remember, the numbers and strength of our units are scary by any measure to any single faction in the world.

Of course, our main goal is peace, but only we know this tiny detail. Let us keep it that way, shall we? You never know what a scared capitalist might pay.

	26-04-2005 21:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And how about selling D:AP to the PK's - that way we nmight get a different tech in return after they switch And to the Angels (before morgan does so?)

I assume the Angels will get DAP for free through their infiltrator ability, after the Hive, the Corporation, the Peacekeepers, and I assume the Gaians too (from the Corporation) will get it.

Same problem with gifting DAP to Lal, hoping they'd switch to something useful: the Angels will get that tech too. I was hoping we could make a deal to give us the rights on that tech from Lal, but the Angels haven't said anything about it in the embassy since 4 april.

So anyway, I'm undecided about giving DAP to PKs. It would be nice to get an extra tech that way, but we have to be aware that tech will make its way to all other factions as well. Or if Lal switches to Doc:Ini (like Yang did), we might not get a tech after all.

	26-04-2005 21:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44

Good points.

	27-04-2005 03:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Of course, our main goal is peace, but only we know this tiny detail. Let us keep it that way, shall we? You never know what a scared capitalist might pay.

To make it look like we're still capable of harming the Axis of Weasels, I posted this in reply to Geo's urge to get on with it:

quote: (We're currently discussing whether or not we'll accept the cease-fire offer and cease our pre-emptive strikes. Answer should follow soon.)

	27-04-2005 07:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I assume the Angels will get DAP for free through their infiltrator ability, after the Hive, the Corporation, the Peacekeepers, and I assume the Gaians too (from the Corporation) will get it.

That's assuming that the Angels have the Corporation infiltrated

And I don't think it's a given that Morgan will just up and trade/sell D:AP to the Gaians - after all, look at the plethora of techs that Morgan has that the Gaians still lack, even up to letting them still research Env Econ while Morgan has had it for yonks

	27-04-2005 10:16									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac ...Axis of Weasels...

I was checking out the save file and its amazing that we are fighting a three front war even if spartans are a military powerhouse.

Guess we could keep this up though.

	27-04-2005 19:34									#14
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so what do we do with the morgans about ending hostilities? and who will post what on the peace conference?

	27-04-2005 20:06									#15
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Well, Googlie is the "official" temp for Kassiopeia.


My thoughts:

I think we need to say openly that we agree to temporarily cease hostilities due to the conference. Then give some blabla about how Morgan treated us with utmost disrespect and how we had to teach them a lesson. Nothing conclusive, of course — just some loud rambling.

A the same time we can go and ask Morgan in the embassy what they would be willing to give for a more permanent peaceful solution. This should go along with a reminder of their, now quite large, debt of payments. Hinting, but not telling that we might accept that as a good-enough offer. Also hinting that in addition to them starting the war, it is them losing the war. * some more*

	27-04-2005 20:57									#16
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My opinion:

Well, I don't think we should accept an immediate end to hostilities due to the conference, not until we have received (at least part of) the payment owed to us by the Morgans. And also, we should insist on a time limit on that cease fire, not just "until the conference ends". We need a more solid contract.

They want a cease fire, and I am guessing that they are willing to pay for it, whereas we have little to gain from it. I'm just not comfortable with giving them exactly what they want without effort.

EDIT: And also, it is better role-play I think

	27-04-2005 21:35									#17
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Yes, but once we get the next turn, they will know we are not attacking. This time it could be "refitting time", but not next turn. Once they see that, they will tell us to bugger off and right so. Meaning, someone has to go talk to them now. Oh, Goooooglie!

	28-04-2005 00:19									#18
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My suggestion (edits/comments at will):


Spartan Justice

Background:

After first meeting, the Federation and the Corporation signed a Treaty of Commerce and Friendship

Some trades were made, and some technologies sold, by the Federation to the Corporation. Recognizing the large commerce imbalance, the Corporation also engaged the Federation in a profit sharing scheme, beneficial to both factions. The Corporation also paid for “observer status” for one of their operatives aboard a Federation lightly-armed exploration vessel, the SCC (Spartan Combat Craft) Hunter

Some time thereafter, the Federation commenced infiltration on the Corporation, resulting in the death of Corporation armored covert operations agents – however note that though the protocols of inter-factional relations deem covert operations agents to have no legal standing (see below, our italics)

quote: Extracted from Interfactional manual, p133 Probe teams cannot attack other units directly, but they can battle one another to the death. Probe Team combat is based on the morale of the combatants. Probe Teams can attack other teams even in squares containing other units. Since Probe Teams have no “official” existence, destroying another faction’s Probe Teams does not violate a treaty or pact.

the Corporation chose to treat our actions as hostile, and commenced withholding credits from previously agreed trades to “compensate” them for the loss of a unit with no official standing.

As a result, the Federation booted off-ship the observer attached to the SCC Hunter

This was our first complaint against the Corporation, and the resulting lost income amounted to 50 credits

Sometime thereafter, the Federation saw fit to promulgate the Modo Doctrine, the intent of which was to preserve inviolate the shores of the Federation and University territories. It was always understood, in our embassy exchanges, that the extent of this exclusion zone was negotiable for any faction (read The Corporation) whose harbour egress from certain coastal bases might be covered by our exclusion zone.

Immediately thereafter, the Corporation decided to mind-control the patrolling vessel (the selfsame SCC Hunter) and declare Vendetta on the Federation. They immediately ceased all due payments (some 48 credits remaining to be paid)

We commenced peace talks, and the Federation position was that we would be willing to renew a treaty if the Corporation returned the Hunter to us to a base that we specified. However, our patrolling vessels found it lurking in the fungus half a continent away from our specified base, and just offshore a coastal base, poised, no doubt, to infiltrate and/or gain control of any unsuspecting vessels emerging from the base. With some regret, we destroyed our erstwhile vessel.

The Federation thought long and hard about an appropriate response to this duplicity, and decided to strike a decisive blow that would remind the Corporation of how long our reach – and our memory – was. We captured their headquarters base, and destroyed it, along with the Planetary Transit System Special Project, losing, however, some highly skilled forces in the mission.

We then held out an olive branch of peace, asking for appropriate reparations, in the embassy:

quote: Posted by Sparta in the Morgan-Sparta Embassy - Immediately resume all per-turn payments you have ceased without agreement. - Return the 50 ecs payment you took for the lost probe; a payment we never agreed to give. - Pay full reparations for the Hunter - the purchase cost of a similar unit. - Return to Treaty of Friendship status with us. - Wire war reparations worth of a minimum of 350 energy credits, bringing the total amount of ECs we expect to see in the box to 400 (plus the purchase of the Hunter, the size of which we shall determine should you be willing to agree to these terms).

(Note that the reparations figure appears high, but it includes the fortuitous pod-popping by the Corporation by the captured Hunter of a pod that we were about to pop – it produced an armoured crawler, worth ½ a special project. We deemed that to be theft of rightful Federation property)

Our claim was treated with disdain by the Corporation, so we continued to press “tough love” on them.

After we discovered Doc: Air, we decided to ‘take out” that crawler, as well as other similar targets of opportunity, a campaign which has been proceeding to date.

And another invasion fleet has been assembled, intended for a major assault on Hive Territory, but now stood down as a result of our signing a truce with the chairman.

So that brings us to the current impasse.

Current Situation

Clearly we are still doing considerable damage to Corporation infrastructure. However, this vendetta wastes lives and resources, and while for the Federation, the price has been cheap these last few years, the imminency of 2169 (and the lifting of sanctions) has given the Junta cause to re-evaluate our position.

We are interested in a cease-fire, and potentially a longer lasting peace, provided the conditions are right. (However the parties involved in conflict with us should be aware that a maintainence of the Vendetta would no doubt keep some of our officers happy and our troops gainfully occupied).

However, to ensure peace, we would require significant reparations from the Corporation, in the order of the 500 or so credits already tabled. We are prepared to treat the loss of our invasion force as equivalent to the loss of the Corporation Headquarters and its defenders.

This is the Federation’s position

edited to reflect Modo's comments (below)

	28-04-2005 00:45									#19
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Good post, Googlie.

I have only one small modification I would like to propose. Namely, leaving the predicted Spartan losses out. I say we let them think we find any losses acceptable (by not mentioning them in future terms). My addition in italics.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Clearly we are doing can still do considerable damage to the Corporation , although Federation losses may be commensurate . However, this vendetta wastes lives and resources, and while for the Federation, the price has been cheap these last few years, the imminency of 2169 (and the lifting of sanctions) has given the Junta cause to re-evaluate our position.

Making the punch line a bit stronger.

	28-04-2005 02:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by AndiD Corporate Accounting finally has tabulated the number of losses. The records may not be complete due to the turmoils of war of recent years, the official non-existence of Probe units and the destruction of our previous capital city.

Aha, the Corporation just gave us ammunition for our argument that destroying a probe team is no hostile act.

	28-04-2005 02:42									#21
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Good message Googlie Do we really think they'll ever pay anything close to 500 ec?

Btw, is their tally on casualties correct? Did we really take out 8 formers?! All in all 24 units if I counted correctly, not a bad job! And we've lost ... 4 rovers, 1 transport, 1 airplane and 1 SCC Hunter? 7 units?

	28-04-2005 02:59									#22
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We've also taken out some 9 probes I believe and an artifact. In addition, their population loss is worse than Morgan Industries. Pops were also lost in IIRC Morgan Mussels (during the PTS raid), Argi Narnia and Morgan Robotics (air raids).

	28-04-2005 03:41									#23
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As an aside - they don't know that we lost the transport. For all they knew we just withdrew it when the rovers kamikazi'd

Position paper posted now, with some snide introductory remarks

	28-04-2005 03:52									#24
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Suggested further post:

quote: the Federation vs. The Gaian Union Although the Federation has had cause to distrust the Gaian Union for several decades, our vendetta with them is of recent origin. 3 years ago a Federation battlefleet sailing to harrass Hive bases on their southern coast was blocked by a Gaian transport in the canal through the isthmus joining their two landmasses. We requested its removal. to allow passage of our fleet. Not only did the Gaian Union refuse our reasonable request, but buttressed their blockade with a seaformer. As our strategic interests were threatened by the Hive, and as we deemed it imperitive to capture a Hive base to allow us negotiating strength, we eliminated that transport and made passage through the canal. The Gaian Union then, in an act of wilful defiance and "nose thumbing" at the Federation, signed a Pact of Brotherhood with the Corporation To teach a much-needed lesson, our troops then invaded and destroyed a Gaian base in the vicinity - again an act of 'tough love" on our part. Chiron's factions must learn that when the Federation makes a reasonable request, to thwart it produces repercussions. Our military is strong, and our reach is long ........... But we have no quarrel with the Gaian Union - other than their choice of bedfellows. A Truce - if not a Treaty - would likely suit both our factions.

	28-04-2005 04:13									#25
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lag

	28-04-2005 04:16									#26
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Love the post in the Peace Conference thread.

For the post re the Gaians, aren't we straying a bit too far from reality though? The Gaians appear to have long toes, so it might piss them off needlessly. Also it might undermine the believability of our story re the Corporation, where we are staying close to the truth (and the bit that is a little bending the truth can't be checked by them).

To specify, we didn't ask the Gaians to withdraw their troops. We planned to, but no one got around to actually sending the request.
Also IIRC the Gaians signed a pact with the Corporation MY 2162, while we started the attack MY 2164. (This latter is of course a better justification for the attack than the Gaians signing a pact after our initial attack, as it appears from your post.)

	28-04-2005 04:16									#27
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Aha - I thought that Kassi actually had e-mailed them to ask for its removal

I didn't realize that thge Morgan-Gaian pact was of that vintage - that's only 3 years after the PTS raid of 2159

I'll have a retry and post something soon in this thread

	28-04-2005 04:35									#28
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How's this .......

quote: The Federation vs. The Gaian Union Although the Federation has had cause to distrust the Gaian Union for several decades, our vendetta with them is of recent origin. But to go back in history - we had some useful technological excahnges with the Union - indeed, we were Treatied with them for a decade or two - but they broke off dealings with us after noticing a Federation exploration vessel very openly mapping coastlines of the southern continents (and trumped up a "parrotted" quasimodo ( ) doctrine to demand the removal of our "covert" (their words) ship or sharing of the exploration data) We naturally refused - after all, the Federation had made the research of doctrine: Flexibility a priority (and other factions could have done likewise) so the Junta were not about to share strategic information just on demand, without recompense So relations deteriorated, followed shortly thereafter by the non-execution of a crucial technology trade that would have immensely benefitted both our factions. Then some years ago a Federation battlefleet sailing to harrass Hive bases on their southern coast was blocked by a Gaian transport in the canal through the isthmus joining their two landmasses. We considered formally requesting its removal, to allow passage of our fleet, but decided it would be a test of their attitude to us to see if they voluntarily moved it to allow passage.. Not only did the Gaian Union not move the blocking transport, but buttressed their blockade with a seaformer. In addition, they then in an act of "nose thumbing" at the Federation, pacted with the Corporation, knowing them to be in vendetta against us, and practically inviting us to take counter action. As our strategic interests were threatened by the Hive, and as we deemed it imperitive to capture a Hive base to allow us negotiating strength, we eliminated that transport and made passage through the canal. To teach a much-needed lesson, our troops then invaded and destroyed a Gaian base in the vicinity - again an act of 'tough love" on our part. Chiron's factions must learn that when the Federation's security interests are threatened, to thwart movement of our vessels in open waters produces repercussions. Our military is strong, and our reach is long ........... But we have no quarrel with the Gaian Union - other than their choice of bedfellows. A Truce - if not a resumption of our Treaty - would likely suit both our factions.

	28-04-2005 08:23									#29
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nice writting. Seems diplomatic enough to me

	28-04-2005 17:06									#30
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maybe remove the military strong reach long thingy....sounds a little bit to warmongery...i know we are RP....but a peace with gaians is really needed i believe...(yes i never say anything but i am keeping uptodate as a real lurker has too)