27-04-2005 00:44									#31
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Assumption!

I don't believe I was lied to.

	27-04-2005 00:45									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Suppression of free speech - nope

What about that hippie marijuana loving commune in Kopenhagen (Croatian spelling, sorry can't be bothered to look up the original) you were going to close down?

Fascists!

	27-04-2005 00:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Why? I mean, yeah, the question is strange, but at the very least the US is poised to be spat on simply by being the world's top dog. Couple that with the hillbilly image of George Bush and latent anticapitalism that dominates much of Europe and other propaganda we are being fed -- and you have a case. What in hell are Danish lefties and youth doing? How can youth be pro-American?? Did Americans do something special for Denmark in her history? I can't think of anything...

Don't misunderstand me, there are certainly a left wing in Denmark and they certainly are 100 % predictable when it comes to be anti-american - but they are just so predicatble that all they have to say are "put in the usual banalities here" (of course they say a lot more, but essentially it is what they say).

I don't think the youth are pro-american, the are just not anti-american, but of course, as usual there are more youths that are aa's.

I think that your problem in understanding us, is that when we apparently isn't anti-american, then we MUST be pro, and that doesn't need to be the case.

I'm not quite sure why you think that we are anticapitalists. There were a period back in the 70'ies where it was a must in certain "intellectual" circles, but we also has a tendency not to take such circles too seriously.

I don't think that very many people here takes the hillbilly image of GB serious - well, of course, the extreme left does, but that are expected by them, so they do it. There was a thread some months ago about the danish election, and IIRC there was some very funny drawings of our politicians including our current prime minister. He is ususally drawn as a unshaven caveman with a club in his hand, but noone think that that is how he really is (ok, the extreme leftists does, of course, but that is their job).

About the spitting on the top dog, well, it is a couple of centuries ago since we were that, so maybe we just don't have to stiffen our egoes doing that

	27-04-2005 01:00									#34
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Well that looks somewhat grim now. The police says they going for the US approach on Christiania with a null-tolerance policy because a man got shot there last thursday. The reason the man got shot was probably something drug/gang-related. And the reason some kind of drug war maybe has begun, is that before the police closed down the openly selling drugvendors, Christiania dominated the drugmarket in Copenhagen, but now when their monopole is broken there is lot of people trying to take the market. But because everybody still comes to Christiania to buy and it can be done, people wants control of Christiania. And now the police they aren't even going to let people sitting outthere smoking a j go as they have done so far.

	27-04-2005 01:04									#35
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion What about that hippie marijuana loving commune in Kopenhagen (Croatian spelling, sorry can't be bothered to look up the original) you were going to close down? Fascists!

The latest news about that piece of heaven is that a couple of days ago one was killed and several was wounded because some drug dealers started firing maschine pistols and other guns. Nice place.

	27-04-2005 01:05									#36
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Sorry for that little stray away from the subject.
Blackcat has more or less explained the way Danes feels 'bout the Americans, so no need to go any further down that road

	27-04-2005 01:07									#37
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@ahasverus : that war started several years before the closing down of pusher street.

	27-04-2005 01:12									#38
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Hmm, it's difficult to figure out whether to be worried or amused by the fact that to some people, it's highly irregular if you're not rabidly anti-American and storm out to make it known at every opportunity you get.

No, it's mostly amusing, I think. Bordering on being ridiculous.

Maybe you should try to wipe the scales from your eyes and realise that what is sometimes perceived to be widely held notions of anti-Americanism is often a product of certain politicians working extremely hard to nurture such sentiments in the context of specific political matters. Political matters where painting such a picture will help them achive something, or so they think.

In my experience, ordinary people aren't against America as such, quite the opposite. And most of them have a fairly good sense of separating the domestic politics agenda from how they view other countries.

	27-04-2005 01:24									#39
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quote: I'm not quite sure why you think that we are anticapitalists. There were a period back in the 70'ies where it was a must in certain "intellectual" circles, but we also has a tendency not to take such circles too seriously.

I know Danes and Denmark are capitalist. Still European capitalism is heavily regulated with regards to enviroment, workers' rights... taxes are high and so on. American is more wild and careless. Compared to USA, all Europe is commie

	27-04-2005 01:25									#40
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No there was a war between rockers in the 80s but nothing in the 90s. The immigrantgangs could just controlled a little bit in nørrebro etc. ,but untill pusherstreet was closed Christiania dominated the market to much for anyone to challenge. That and the fact that a lot of retired rockers still retained power in Christiania. And nobody messed with rockers even ex-ones. But now when the most of them got arrested following the closing of pusherstreet, there is nobody strong enough to challenge the immigrantgangs, who have also gained strength over the years almost to the point where rockers are afraid of them

	27-04-2005 01:33									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Winston In my experience, ordinary people aren't against America as such, quite the opposite. And most of them have a fairly good sense of separating the domestic politics agenda from how they view other countries.

There is a big leap from not being anti America[*] and supporting intervention.

By far (really far) most people in most countries are not interventionists. The ordinary folk don't want to send "our boys" to harm's way to get killed. Even if they are professionals and have volunteered.

So it's political manipulation either way.


[*] I think even most fanatical anti Americans in poor countries like, say, Iran would accept the chance of better life American citizenship would bring them. The point I'm trying to make is that there are different levels of love and hate for a country.

	27-04-2005 01:36									#42
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If Winston doesn't mind a little threadjacking, I'll keep it here (starting a new thread about danish drugwar wouldn't be a big hit .

After what I have heard/read, then the police has registred a growing in armouring of gangs for at least tree years, especially the immigrantgangs, so this started well before the closing of PS, and it was that I referred to, not the 80's and 90's rockerwars.

	27-04-2005 01:45									#43
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well thats a point but Germany started arming itself even prior to Hitlers takeover ,and we still consider ww2 starting in '39 and not sometime in the 20s.

So the build-up might have begun before but hey they run around shooting eachother and will probably soon if not already begin taking territories from HA and Bandidos and that still requires a lot of arms IMHO. So the weapons are probably not solely for shooting down tourists, hippies and small time dealers

	27-04-2005 01:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion There is a big leap from not being anti America[*] and supporting intervention. By far (really far) most people in most countries are not interventionists. The ordinary folk don't want to send "our boys" to harm's way to get killed. Even if they are professionals and have volunteered. So it's political manipulation either way. [*] I think even most fanatical anti Americans in poor countries like, say, Iran would accept the chance of better life American citizenship would bring them. The point I'm trying to make is that there are different levels of love and hate for a country.

You are rigth about ordinary people isn't glad for losses, but to say that that makes them in total opposition of not doing anything is a very long leap. At least I have only heard that from very few people/politicians here.

Denmark has a long tradition of sending soldiers to hotspots, usually under UN, and not without losses, but that has never started some "call our boys back immediately" demands from the public.

I think that the common opinion here are that if there is a understandable reason and if it helps other people, then common danes think that it is worth fighting for.

You might call it politcal manipulation, and most danish left wing would agree with you, but they are a small minority.

	27-04-2005 02:21									#45
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Hmm. OK.

	27-04-2005 02:31									#46
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Hmm. OK.

Arghh - this is almost as bad as following a beautiful lady home and only get a kiss at her front door.

On the other side, if you now are convinced to follow the Danish way, I'm satisfied

	27-04-2005 02:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I don't believe I was lied to.

That just means it was an effective lie, sucker.

	27-04-2005 02:37									#48
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Ya, like you know.

	27-04-2005 02:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That just means it was an effective lie, sucker.

Oh, what an easy life you have - if someone "special" says something all you have is to say to yourself is that "they lie pr definition" so you don't have to think.

	27-04-2005 02:39									#50
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We do. There are no WMDs, the CIA told the Prez that they couldn't be certain, and the Prez told us he knew for a fact that there were WMDs. That's called lying.

	27-04-2005 02:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Oh, what an easy life you have - if someone "special" says something all you have is to say to yourself is that "they lie pr definition" so you don't have to think.

What are you talking about?

	27-04-2005 03:03									#52
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Further update on the thread subject;

As I expected, the government does not at this time want to set a date for when the Danish troops in Iraq can go home. But the government does expect to be able to initiate a gradual withdrawal sometime in 2006.

That was among the messages in a foreign ministry report released on Tuesday, which will form the basis for the upcoming extension of the Danish troops deployment in Iraq. Foreign minister Per Stig Møller does not agree with the opposition to the left of the government that there'd be any purpose in setting a fixed exit date for the troops.

"The risk of setting a date is that if everyone does it, certain elements could just decide to wait it out and then make things very nasty for the Iraqi democracy once everybody's gone home. That is something we have to give serious consideration. I'm not ruling out anything before the negotiations (with the opposition), but I'm very skeptical." said Per Stig Møller.

(The previous paragraph was an attempt at translation by me.) W.

As I mentioned earlier, the government doesn't have to reach an agreement with the opposition to the left, as they have their own parliamentary majority backing, which remains behind the decision to extend without condition of an exit date.

	27-04-2005 03:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What are you talking about?

GWB == special

	27-04-2005 03:14									#54
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Winston just a question. Nothing personal, just curious.
What is the opposition to the left, in this case S & R supports the government. One might argue that V & S are practically the same, but R are relatively left to the government especialy in immigrant questions and others. And still S are considered by some to be a touch to the left of V, but are there any differences with Gucci-Helle as leader of S

	27-04-2005 03:16									#55
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Just cuz you're special doesn't mean you can't lie. The hard evidence points to lying.

	27-04-2005 03:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat On the other side, if you now are convinced to follow the Danish way, I'm satisfied

I replied to Winston that I agree that small countries should play an active role in international events. But, it is a serious thing to send army to occupy a foreign country. No wonder coalition that supports USA is so small.

As for Croatia going that way.. nah. We went through a war in the nineties. We're not eager for more. We sent a couple dozen military policemen (all of whom are professionals AND volunteered - no conscripts) to Afghanistan, and even that was just pro-forma.

Americans have helped us in our war, but we have no illusions that they did it for love. We were here what Northern Alliance would later be in Afghanistan. So we don't feel indebted.

	27-04-2005 03:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion I replied to Winston that I agree that small countries should play an active role in international events. But, it is a serious thing to send army to occupy a foreign country. No wonder coalition that supports USA is so small. As for Croatia going that way.. nah. We went through a war in the nineties. We're not eager for more. We sent a couple dozen military policemen (all of whom are professionals AND volunteered - no conscripts) to Afghanistan, and even that was just pro-forma. Americans have helped us in our war, but we have no illusions that they did it for love. We were here what Northern Alliance would later be in Afghanistan. So we don't feel indebted.

You have just pointed out another difference. I think that very few here sees our troops as an occupational force - they see it as a liberation force. Of course it is an occupational force after fighting down the previous regime, but there are a big difference between a liberation of a country and a conquest.

	27-04-2005 03:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just cuz you're special doesn't mean you can't lie. The hard evidence points to lying.

Actually, it was the opposite I thought - this "special" says something - who cares, he lies pr definition.

	27-04-2005 03:30									#59
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quote: Originally posted by ahasverus Winston just a question. Nothing personal, just curious. What is the opposition to the left, in this case S & R supports the government.

The opposition to the left that I referred to a couple of times is the Social Democrats and Radikale Venstre. They do not support the government on this, in that both of those parties want a fixed exit date for the troops, whereas the government does not.

quote: One might argue that V & S are practically the same...

Not in my part of the universe.

quote: ...but are there any differences with Gucci-Helle as leader of S

Probably on some issues, depending on how Helle Thorning-Schmidt manages to concentrate all of her grand declarations into workable political positions, in Parliament and when negotiating with the government. So far, all I've seen is a political novice attempting to keep a public interest in her own person by claiming that she can "win". Let's wait and see just how much substance she actually holds.

	27-04-2005 03:52									#60
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Apparently this is not decided yet but yes you're right 8 more month they'll get 'cause of DF. But DR says that Per-Stig might consider making an agreement with S & R. They suggest a retreat in juli. So the question is will the government and S & R come to an agreement or will we wait 8 month and maybe get the same result because things look better. But I'll think the last option is not likely.

Men som du ved; Det er svært at spå, især om fremtiden.

Excuse my danish. Its a danish proverb and I can't remember the english word for "spå". Damnation I can find my english-danish, german-danish, danish-german, swedish-danish, latin-danish, latin-english, spanish-danish, danish-spanish and my english-ancient grecian but I can't find my danish-english