30-04-2005 20:38									#61
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: Who cares about gameplay? If modding is as deep as CTP2's modding, then we can make it as deep as we want. I don't like it if you'd have to play a mod to have a decent game. I want a good game out of the box. One advantage it gives is standartization, instead of having everyone play one of the 3-4 major mods.

I agree, its vital for a good multiplayer community that the vanilla game is both stable, bug-free and balanced from the start. CtP2 MP is very stable and fast but the vanilla game is riddled with imbalances and obviously the rushbuy bug that truly killed CtP2MP, now fixed in the sourcecode 3 or 4 years too late.

	30-04-2005 20:48									#62
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Qilue,

Maybe I need to rephrase the fact thread a little (and maybe it's just plain wrong): so far, almost every screenshot we've seen has had a different angle, pitch and zoom, which is a strong indication that the user can actually freely set these things him/herself (which makes sense, that's a very easy thing to do with a 3D engine). I assumed in the fact thread that the default angle shows the map as squares, that that's how they're coded, but presumably it won't really matter for the end user.

quote: Originally posted by Sn00py For those who think graphics do not make the game - that is your opinion. For many, graphics helps to make the game better, thats why companies continue to make games with better graphics.

Like I said, graphics don't make or break a game, they only make it. A horrible game with fantastic graphics will by many still be seen as a bad game. An okay game with great graphics will by many be seen as a good game. A game with bad graphics but fantastic gameplay will be seen as a great game.

Graphics can make a game better, they can't make it good (or bad).

quote: And Civilization can have graphics like AoEIII, it's just that no one is daring to take up the challenge. This is something only Peter Molyneux would dare to do.

As Modo44 pointed out, there's this little thing called a budget. Civ3 sold over a million copies, AoE sold over 15 million. The amount of copies sold of one title immediately impacts the budget of the next one (which is why software piracy is such a bad thing, moral and legal issues aside). The situation is too complicated to simply state that AoE3 has a 15 times larger budget than Civ4, but there *is* a significant difference.

	30-04-2005 21:06									#63
	Tired of ads?

quote: Like I said, graphics don't make or break a game, they only make it. A horrible game with fantastic graphics will by many still be seen as a bad game. An okay game with great graphics will by many be seen as a good game. A game with bad graphics but fantastic gameplay will be seen as a great game.

If only. There are too many people who judge a game by its graphics. Why do you think Civ4 uses 3D graphics? It's not because the game itself requires it, it's because many will automatically consider the game boring if it's released in 2005 with 2D graphics. Sad but true.

And I think many people will ignore great gameplay if the game has bad graphics. I'm pretty sure that if a great Civ game was released now with Civ2 graphics, most reviewers would say it's incredibly behind the times, hence influencing sales negatively.

	30-04-2005 23:17									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Qilue Look at where the river is flowing in the first and where the desert tiles meet the grassland tiles in the second. Now assuming Civ4 uses the same river system as Civ3, the river clearly indicates a diagonal flow which indicates diamond tiles. So, either the facts thread has that part incorrect, or the screenie is from early development prior tio the switch to square tiles.

Poor deluded ... Take a look below.

Here is a demonstration of my Paint SkillZ! Behold!

	30-04-2005 23:50									#65
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I'm not sure if I see enough there to make a judgement.

Since when was that an issue here



Gramps

afterall its all just conjecture and opinion i.e. I hope this happens or this batter not be this way

Face it sheeple

whence the game comes out I will but it along with many others

we will have fun find shortcomings fuss and cuss about them get maybe a patch or two and then alas I cant wait for the expansion pack to re4solve the issues here

	01-05-2005 00:06									#66
	Tired of ads?

Looking @ the graphics versus the pixels of the unit..I am amazed at people downing the graphics while accepting the gargantuan ratio of units to mountains or units to river

I just enjoy the game and rationalize I am not "really" at war I am not "really" on a Calcary Steed or in an Armored Assault Vehicle and enjoy what was meant to be gameplay on a pc instead of chasing a ball on a tennis court or swatting mosquitoes on a river bank or staring out a tree stand for Bambi..

I do enjoy IV and I believe this will be a good game..

perfect?



probably not

but close enough to have a very good gaming experience

Gramps

	01-05-2005 00:17									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

CivIV magazine article scan removed.

See my related post for more information: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...943#post3724943

---------
Dan; Apolyton CS

	01-05-2005 00:42									#68
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Poor deluded ... Take a look below. Here is a demonstration of my Paint SkillZ! Behold!

I'm afraid you're the deluded one
By diamonds he meant exactly what you just painted.

Diamond:
/\
\/


Square:
__
|_|

See, that's what he means with the difference between diamond and squares, it's just the angle at which you look at the map....in essense they're both squares, but you look at them differently.

	01-05-2005 02:22									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Funny, I thought he meant hexes... What did you mean, Qilue?

	01-05-2005 02:27									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread except you meant diamonds, not hexes. But that's okay, we still love you

	01-05-2005 02:51									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I agree, its vital for a good multiplayer community that the vanilla game is both stable, bug-free and balanced from the start. CtP2 MP is very stable and fast but the vanilla game is riddled with imbalances and obviously the rushbuy bug that truly killed CtP2MP, now fixed in the sourcecode 3 or 4 years too late.

Maybe I should've explained myself fully:

Yes it would be fantastic for the gameplay to be top-notch. If it is, then we wouldn't really need mods, only scenarios.

HOWEVER, if gameplay sucks, then if modding is top-notch (like CTP2's) then we can create our own mods and our own gameplay elements.

This is why I said it doesn't matter about gameplay as long as we can add it in via mods.

Now about MP, I don't care as I'm still stuck in Telstra's dark ages on dialup. So can't play it anyways.

Dale

	01-05-2005 03:01									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Locutus I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread except you meant diamonds, not hexes.

Are you? I mean, in that case calling the tile shape "diamond" or "square" would not change a bit of the engine underneath. The "difference" if using a 3D engine is purely the viewing angle, which will probably be adjustable anyway. Basically, no point to argue about, even with the little we know so far.

Only hexes actually make things different in terms of game play, which is what I thought was meant here. So, let us wait for Qilue's answer, ok?

quote: Originally posted by Locutus But that's okay, we still love you

I know you do.

	01-05-2005 03:07									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Yes it would be fantastic for the gameplay to be top-notch. If it is, then we wouldn't really need mods, only scenarios. HOWEVER, if gameplay sucks, then if modding is top-notch (like CTP2's) then we can create our own mods and our own gameplay elements. This is why I said it doesn't matter about gameplay as long as we can add it in via mods.

I still disagree. It's not OK if we get a game with bad gameplay but we can still mod it. Having modding capabilities is not an excuse for developers to release games with bad gameplay. The vast modding capabilities of CtP2 are not an excuse for CtP2's exceptionally poor AI, and poor gameplay can never be excused with modding capabilities.

It's the game that costs this money, not a bunch of modding tools. I want Civ4 to be good out of the box. Taking in account the amount of time it takes for the development of a mod, it's not fair if I buy the game and have to wait for 6 months before a mod comes out that makes it playable.

	01-05-2005 03:11									#74
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i wonder if people whom design games,market games and have final say on games being produed look at these forums and laugh or do they listen?

unfortunately

probably a little of both

	01-05-2005 03:11									#75
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Solver It's the game that costs this money, not a bunch of modding tools.

True that.

	01-05-2005 03:13									#76
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: i wonder if people whom design games,market games and have final say on games being produed look at these forums and laugh or do they listen?

Well, Firaxis do read the Apolyton forums and do actually respect our ideas. They're nice in that sense, most developers don't bother to stay in touch with their fans or read forums. The downside usually is the publisher, which tends to be just an ass and prevent the developer from doing what they want. Take-Two, though, seem, from their past games, to be good.

	01-05-2005 03:17									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

and we only have ourselves to blame while we moan and groan we still purchase the product

but it still beat the old days of pong

Attachment: pong.gif
This has been downloaded 138 time(s).

	01-05-2005 03:29									#78
	Remove this text

Well, the moaning and groaning typically comes after the purchase.

	01-05-2005 08:43									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Solver Well, the moaning and groaning typically comes after the purchase.

I remember well the moaning and groaning after buying MOO3. My wife thought I was having twins.

	01-05-2005 14:29									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Solver Well, the moaning and groaning typically comes after the purchase.

Solver..I was having a little ribbing fer the folks fussing and whining..and no CIVIV jas yet to come out yet they still whine..er..comment

	02-05-2005 00:08									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Has it been removed? I don't see it......

	02-05-2005 00:19									#82
	Suffering from ads?

No, I see them.

EDIT: But DanQ has removed one of them if I understand his post correctly.

	03-05-2005 19:10									#83
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I thought the single user license for the game came with a right to moan and groan. (In other words, you don't have any right to complain about something until after you buy it)

	03-05-2005 21:27									#84
	Suffering from ads?

Stacking might give a different flag or something...

PS
Like Mr Sovler, I want a killer experience from the vanilla product.
I want the same buzz of the unknown and the sense of wonder from my first CIV2 game.

Modding will merely be a mind-blowing bonus!

	03-05-2005 21:29									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Like Mr Sovler, I want a killer experience from the vanilla product. I want the same buzz of the unknown and the sense of wonder from my first CIV2 game. Modding will merely be a mind-blowing bonus!