07-05-2005 00:57									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have to wonder at the thinking of people who would even suggest such a thing.

The word "slavery" implies unfairness. Therefore requiring you to work for fair pay is not "slavery."

	07-05-2005 01:35									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't know if balance can be inherent since it's subjective.

It's subjective at any given point in time, but we're not talking about a specific set of laws at a given time, we're talking about a dynamic system of laws which can change in multiple directions depending on the needs and will of society at large.

	07-05-2005 01:43									#303
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Kid, in some sense, capitalism forces one to work for a living. But it does not force a person to work at a particular job, or for a boss or company that treats them in a harsh and unfair way.

But communism forces people to work at a job regardless of how the worker feels about the job, the pay or the bosses. That is not fair unless "fair" is defined communist parlance to mean anything the party bosses decide.

	07-05-2005 02:07									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The word "slavery" implies unfairness. Therefore requiring you to work for fair pay is not "slavery."

An external party requiring you to work, and then determining for you what is "fair" is unfair. Although slavery denotes control, not fairness.

If Salma Hayek bought me and decided to make me her perpetual sex slave, it probably wouldn't be "unfair" (as I wouldn't be likely to object ), but it would still be slavery.

	07-05-2005 02:17									#305
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If Salma Hayek bought me and decided to make me her perpetual sex slave, it probably wouldn't be "unfair" (as I wouldn't be likely to object ), but it would still be slavery.

So slavery can be good?

	07-05-2005 02:20									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, in some sense, capitalism forces one to work for a living. But it does not force a person to work at a particular job, or for a boss or company that treats them in a harsh and unfair way.

In form, you're free to quit any job that you deem unfair in capitalism. In substance, most people work even though they consider the job to be unfair and not to pay enough.

quote: But communism forces people to work at a job regardless of how the worker feels about the job, the pay or the bosses. That is not fair unless "fair" is defined communist parlance to mean anything the party bosses decide.

If the party has a mandate then what's the problem. If the republicans have a mandate to cut spending or the democrats have a mandate to tax that's not slavery even if you disagree with it.

	07-05-2005 02:24									#307
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's subjective at any given point in time, but we're not talking about a specific set of laws at a given time, we're talking about a dynamic system of laws which can change in multiple directions depending on the needs and will of society at large.

What does that have to do with requiring everyone to work?

	07-05-2005 02:37									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So slavery can be good?

Anything for Salma...

	07-05-2005 02:39									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What does that have to do with requiring everyone to work?

Nobody is required to work by force of law or anything else. We were talking about fairness and whether a democracy could or would allow forcing people to work for what some unspecified party determined was a "fair" wage.

	07-05-2005 06:09									#310
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Wow, here I am thinking that posting pics like that was something that would get you banned...

quote: But communism forces people to work at a job regardless of how the worker feels about the job, the pay or the bosses.

Ever tried to pay the rent in a capitalist system?

	07-05-2005 06:38									#311
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You mean you're chained to your desk and your boss refuses to let you quit and go elsewhere?

No, they'd just like a system like that. It doesn't mean they have it.

	07-05-2005 10:41									#312
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nobody is required to work by force of law or anything else. We were talking about fairness and whether a democracy could or would allow forcing people to work for what some unspecified party determined was a "fair" wage.

When the predominant system is capitalism, there IS NO CHOICE.

	07-05-2005 11:37									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, I think people can volunteer to live in communes so long as they are free to leave. I used to live in one. But you cannot force people to live in communes. That is not democracy, is it?

Communes are still a subset of the private property system. Every government imposes a certain version of property. From there the rest is (or not) negociable.

	09-05-2005 14:07									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Wow, here I am thinking that posting pics like that was something that would get you banned... quote: But communism forces people to work at a job regardless of how the worker feels about the job, the pay or the bosses. Ever tried to pay the rent in a capitalist system?

Hueij, if you don't think the place is worth the rent, you actually have the RIGHT to move in free societies. The same may not be true in commie societies, as there, you are a prisoner as well as being a wage slave.

	09-05-2005 14:09									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Communes are still a subset of the private property system. Every government imposes a certain version of property. From there the rest is (or not) negociable.

Really? I was in a Catholic seminary. Are you familiar with such things?

Actually, I believe the whole concept of communism came from such things as monestaries, convents and the like.

	09-05-2005 20:37									#316
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Ok I trolled the Mod to get him to post a nude pic of Salma, now it's someone elses turn.

	09-05-2005 20:41									#317
	Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, it was thirty years ago that the people of Vietnam finally prevailed in their thirty year war against the imperialist running dogs and finally overthrew the last remnents of colonialism, i.e., theSaigon regime.

Wonderful.

Let's build a large human skull pyramid to celebrate the vile
red beasts that wallowed in bloody human suffering and
killed people on a scale that is almost without compare.

After all, death is the true hallmark of the communist...

.

	09-05-2005 20:45									#318
	Re: Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling killed people on a scale that is almost without compare.

You couldn't possibly be that delusional.

	09-05-2005 21:21									#319
	Re: Re: Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You couldn't possibly be that delusional.

I could counter you with the same comment.


Sorry, I forgot that it is not trendy to highlight communist
killings, as well as those from the Japanese, or Nazis, etc.

Go read an unrevised history book (if such a thing exists)...

Please induct yourself to the real world.

.

	09-05-2005 21:22									#320
	Re: Re: Re: Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Go read an unrevised history book (if such a thing exists).

They never did.

	09-05-2005 21:30									#321
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The correct answer!

But capitalists, communists, all have bloody hands.

However, I prefer to back the system that gives me the
choice not to become an inhuman slave animal who
must eat my own children and grass soup to live...

	09-05-2005 21:30									#322
	Re: Re: Re: Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I could counter you with the same comment. Sorry, I forgot that it is not trendy to highlight communist killings, as well as those from the Japanese, or Nazis, etc. Go read an unrevised history book (if such a thing exists)... Please induct yourself to the real world. .

Not that I necessarily disagree with you on anything, but I really get tired sometimes of the derisive use of the words "revised history."

There never was such a thing as a thoroughly, 100 percent factual work of history on any subject of human history of any part of the world. There has always been revision, revision, and more revision of history from the time people started recording past human events.

	09-05-2005 21:39									#323
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling The correct answer! But capitalists, communists, all have bloody hands. However, I prefer to back the system that gives me the choice not to become an inhuman slave animal who must eat my own children and grass soup to live.

Industrial socialist societies don't present that option to you, and underdeveloped capitalist societies do. The question is about the level of development, and heretofore, no communist revolution has occured in an industrial state.

	09-05-2005 21:59									#324
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All Hail the Glorious People's Revolution in Vietnam! Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Not that I necessarily disagree with you on anything, but I really get tired sometimes of the derisive use of the words "revised history." There never was such a thing as a thoroughly, 100 percent factual work of history on any subject of human history of any part of the world. There has always been revision, revision, and more revision of history from the time people started recording past human events.

And he should know. In fact, he's doing it right now.

	09-05-2005 22:17									#325
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And there's not necessarily anything wrong with some revision of history -- as it provides new insight, and new information on any particular topic of human history.

Presentation of events/developments in human history change from one generation to the next, and from one group's perspective to the next. It's the fluidity of exchange between these different tensions that can provide a more accurate insight.

	09-05-2005 22:40									#326
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If it weren't for revising history, we'd still be taught that nothing ever happened in Africa before colonialism, that there were no Indians except on Thanksgiving, and that Black slaves were happy go-lucky people who were lazy and liked to dance and eat watermellon and were lost when slavery ended.

Sometimes historical revision is a good thing.

	09-05-2005 22:59									#327
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Anyways, this is all moot. The Commies may have won the battle, but Capitalism has won the war. The US is now Vietnam's biggest trading partner.

	09-05-2005 23:30									#328
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If it weren't for revising history, we'd still be taught that nothing ever happened in Africa before colonialism, that there were no Indians except on Thanksgiving, and that Black slaves were happy go-lucky people who were lazy and liked to dance and eat watermellon and were lost when slavery ended. Sometimes historical revision is a good thing.

Some is good -- in order to eliminate the propaganda of the time, not to introduce new propaganda. For example, Bush's apology for Yalta, the other day, should usher in a fresh look at what really happened in 1945 and why the deals we made were struck.

	09-05-2005 23:34									#329
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Anyways, this is all moot. The Commies may have won the battle, but Capitalism has won the war. The US is now Vietnam's biggest trading partner.

This is interesting, isn't it, how Asian commies naturally progress to capitism and become what we normally define to be fascists?

(From other posts, you will note that I contend that fascism and communism are very close to each other on the political axis, and are not at opposite poles as most contend. All it takes for a communist state to become "fascist" is to provide a little more "free market," property rights and the rule of law.)

	09-05-2005 23:39									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is interesting, isn't it, how Asian commies naturally progress to capitism and become what we normally define to be fascists?

Um . . . . .



what do you mean by "naturally" progress? Do you adhere to some kind of teleogical viewpoint in the belief that how things happened were inevitable merely because we have the gift of hindsight?