09-05-2005 23:47									#331
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Um . . . . . what do you mean by "naturally" progress? Do you adhere to some kind of teleogical viewpoint in the belief that how things happened were inevitable merely because we have the gift of hindsight?

Well, I just note that both China and Vietnam are going the same direction. I also note that Soviet communism never really introduced capitalism. Neither has Cuba. There must be something different about Asian communism.

But it also does raise the issue of whether communism has to evolve in order to survive, as all commie societies that have not evolved seemed to have vanished, save for the Cuban experiment.

	09-05-2005 23:51									#332
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Of course a communist government/system would have to evolve -- any kind of government/system that does not evolve will not survive.


That's a given.

	09-05-2005 23:54									#333
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Of course a communist government/system would have to evolve -- any kind of government/system that does not evolve will not survive. That's a given.

OK.

But if you view what happened in the USSR as "evolution," then all commie societies evolve either into fascism or into democratic capitalism. They never evolve as claimed by Marxist theory.

	10-05-2005 00:23									#334
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So? Human history has too often shown that the way things are theorized and the way things actually work out, do not necessarily mesh together.

	10-05-2005 00:27									#335
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So? Human history has too often shown that the way things are theorized and the way things actually work out, do not necessarily mesh together.

Good, Mr. Fun. I think we finally agree on something.

	10-05-2005 02:30									#336
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But that applies to anything related to human history . . . . .



including capitalism.

	10-05-2005 02:42									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush's apology for Yalta, the other day, should usher in a fresh look at what really happened in 1945 and why the deals we made were struck.

As opposed to the turgid conservative mythologies we now have?

	10-05-2005 02:43									#338
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ummmmm..........turgid conservatives.............

	10-05-2005 03:24									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Ned OK. But if you view what happened in the USSR as "evolution," then all commie societies evolve either into fascism or into democratic capitalism. They never evolve as claimed by Marxist theory.

More faulty logic from the Nediverse.

	10-05-2005 03:36									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious More faulty logic from the Nediverse.

Of course Ned is wrong, they don't evolve into those mentioned - they quickly change into either a totalitarian state ruled by an elite or into someting feudalistic where a single peron is the absolute ruler.

	10-05-2005 04:02									#341
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But that applies to anything related to human history . . . . . including capitalism.

No doubt. If one starts with the Roman Empire as the most "right wing" government ever, the trend clearly is to the left as more and more protections for the average joe are introduced.

	10-05-2005 04:04									#342
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As opposed to the turgid conservative mythologies we now have?

Mythologies? And just what is the proper term for communist lies and propaganda that they promote as history?

	10-05-2005 04:04									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious More faulty logic from the Nediverse.

Support YOUR point by even one example.

	10-05-2005 04:05									#344
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Of course Ned is wrong, they don't evolve into those mentioned - they quickly change into either a totalitarian state ruled by an elite or into someting feudalistic where a single peron is the absolute ruler.

No, they start that way. The evolve into less harsh regimes of some kind.

	10-05-2005 04:22									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No, they start that way. The evolve into less harsh regimes of some kind.

Romania ? Cuba ?

	10-05-2005 05:30									#346
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Romania ? Cuba ?

I don't know much about Romania. However, Cuba used to execute its political prisoners without trial. Now they give them a show trial first and then lock them away for life.

	10-05-2005 06:43									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I don't know much about Romania. However, Cuba used to execute its political prisoners without trial. Now they give them a show trial first and then lock them away for life.

They all had trials, Ned. They may not have been fair trials, but they were trials. And those in the Kangaroo courts were really nasty people, Batistas murderers and tortuers, so don't weap too much for them.

Romania, well, Romania is just a very sad place where they think that they way to rule is to imitate Vlad the Impaler.

	10-05-2005 08:02									#348
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Romania?

Romania is a strange case. It became extremely harsh under Ceaucescu, because of the despot's personality. Unlike what happened in the USSR or in East Germany, where a conservative bureaucracy took over (with a strong emphasis on stability, which made these regimes far less extreme), Romania witnessed the rise of a megalomaniac dictator. It's not the first time such a thing happened in the Soviet bloc (Stalin's rise to power was against the more moderate heirs of Lenin).

A totalitarian regime runs an inherent risk of granting all the power to one man. The common use of political violence against opponents make it much more likely that a dangerous man remains unopposed.

	10-05-2005 08:06									#349
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quote: Romania, well, Romania is just a very sad place where they think that they way to rule is to imitate Vlad the Impaler.

I have a Romanian friend. That place was simply insane according to him.

	10-05-2005 08:29									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I have a Romanian friend. That place was simply insane according to him.

I think there are some similarities between Ceausescu's Romania and North Korea. An amazing cult of personality. An economic system that isn't designed for the needs of the people, but for the whim of the despot (which explains why North Korea has a famine and nukes - or why Romania had very poor living condition and the biggest palace in the world). A terrible paranoia that leads the despot to punish its population for pretty much anything.

Stalinism.

	10-05-2005 10:01									#351
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quote: Yes, it was thirty years ago that the people of Vietnam finally prevailed in their thirty year war against the imperialist running dogs and finally overthrew the last remnents of colonialism, i.e., theSaigon regime.

Too bad Greece didn't do the same. Maybe we'd have some objectivity around these forums.

	10-05-2005 11:19									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Propaganda Too bad Greece didn't do the same. Maybe we'd have some objectivity around these forums.

In a sense you are right. Places that were once ruled by communism have a lot of objectivity about that form of government.