06-05-2005 08:49									#271
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quote: although it is hard to imagine how a free market could exist in a totalitarian state.

incredible stuff here

	06-05-2005 09:57									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Accepting this principle, then, most, if not all, prior communist regimes are fascist because they all have been nationalist to one extent or another. Think of Ho Chi Minh, for example. He was a nationalist. Everyone says so.

A nationalist is not always a fascist.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Surely Stalin was a nationalist. He transformed WWII into the great patriotic war.

Who wasn't fighting for his or her own country in WWII?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Ditto with Mao. Look at China today.

The dominating ideology of the CCP is different from Maoism.

quote: Originally posted by Ned They are united in their hatred of the Japanese. They are very aware of being Chinese, and not just commies.

Um, most Chinese are not commies, and most of us don't hate the Japanese.

	06-05-2005 20:36									#273
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun To acknowledge that both economic systems (communism and capitalism) are both potentially equally corrupt and bad does not make one a Marxist.

There has never been a communist economic system. There have been economies planned by so called communist parties. Exploitaion is inherent to capitalism. Corrupt communism is just bastardizaton.

	06-05-2005 20:46									#274
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quote: most of us don't hate the Japanese.

You're so cute when you lie UR

	06-05-2005 20:52									#275
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You assume he stops lieing?

	06-05-2005 20:54									#276
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You assume he stops lieing?

Surely he sleeps sometimes

	06-05-2005 21:04									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Surely he sleeps sometimes

Ever heard about sleep talking ?

	06-05-2005 21:22									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Surely he sleeps sometimes

He lies down for a nap.

	06-05-2005 21:24									#279
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He lies down for a nap.

Maybe its hard for him to talk while he's eating?

	06-05-2005 21:26									#280
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Ya got me.

	06-05-2005 22:07									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger A nationalist is not always a fascist.

I agree. But apparently Imran and others think that one-party states that deemphasize individuality and emphasize nationalism are fascist. But that aptly describes virtually all communist states that have actually existed. It may not the ideal communism taught in schools, but in real countries, a sense of national identity seems to be irresistable.

	06-05-2005 22:09									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious There has never been a communist economic system. There have been economies planned by so called communist parties. Exploitaion is inherent to capitalism. Corrupt communism is just bastardizaton.

Kid, the problem is that communist systems as taught as an ideal are impossible to implement because they are so illogical, etc., etc., etc. State ownership, however, is simple to implement and inherently advances the agenda of party control.

	06-05-2005 22:14									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, the problem is that communist systems as taught as an ideal are impossible to implement because they are so illogical, etc., etc., etc. State ownership, however, is simple to implement and inherently advances the agenda of party control.

I'm not talking about communist utopia. I'm talking about govt by the consent of the people.

	06-05-2005 22:23									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not talking about communist utopia. I'm talking about govt by the consent of the people.

Well, I think people can volunteer to live in communes so long as they are free to leave. I used to live in one.

But you cannot force people to live in communes. That is not democracy, is it?

	06-05-2005 22:26									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, I think people can volunteer to live in communes so long as they are free to leave. I used to live in one. But you cannot force people to live in communes. That is not democracy, is it?

Democracy doesn't mean total freedom. Individuals are still subject to the law. You can have a democracy and still force people to live in a communist society.

	06-05-2005 22:33									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Democracy doesn't mean total freedom. Individuals are still subject to the law. You can have a democracy and still force people to live in a communist society.

This is a clear example of communist double-think.

	06-05-2005 22:35									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is a clear example of communist double-think.

No, it's an example of you obviously not understanding what I'm saying. They whole purpose of law is to limit people's freedoms. Democracy doesn't change that.

	06-05-2005 22:42									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No, it's an example of you obviously not understanding what I'm saying. They whole purpose of law is to limit people's freedoms. Democracy doesn't change that.

The whole purpose of law is to balance people's rights and freedoms. i.e. your "freedom" to steal from me or kill me is a violation of my rights not to be robbed or killed by some random individual who feels a need to exercise such a "freedom"

	06-05-2005 22:45									#289
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The whole purpose of law is to balance people's rights and freedoms. i.e. your "freedom" to steal from me or kill me is a violation of my rights not to be robbed or killed by some random individual who feels a need to exercise such a "freedom"

That's not the "whole" purpose. A democratic govt can pass any law that it wants within the guidelines of its constitution. Any right not guaranteed by the constitution is fair play.

	06-05-2005 22:50									#290
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But the lack of freedom to leave one's job, one's location, one's country is

SLAVERY!!!!!!!!!

	06-05-2005 22:51									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's not the "whole" purpose. A democratic govt can pass any law that it wants within the guidelines of its constitution. Any right not guaranteed by the constitution is fair play.

A democratic government can pass any law acceptable to the electorate which provides, over the long term, the balance between rights and freedom.

	06-05-2005 22:53									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But the lack of freedom to leave one's job, one's location, one's country is SLAVERY!!!!!!!!!

You could call any lack of freedom slavery. We all wake up in the morning and do what we gotta do. I don't call that slavery.

	06-05-2005 22:54									#293
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat A democratic government can pass any law acceptable to the electorate which provides, over the long term, the balance between rights and freedom.

Even if that were true it would depend on how you define balance, and it would be subject to interpretation.

	06-05-2005 23:07									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You could call any lack of freedom slavery. We all wake up in the morning and do what we gotta do. I don't call that slavery.

Bull. Basic freedom included the ability to change jobs and to move. You strip these from people under the guise of law and you have introduced slavery. Diocletian did this to the Roman people after his wage/price controls caused the Roman economy to collapse. In some respects, Diocletian introduced the first communist government on this planet.

All hail Diocletian!!!

	06-05-2005 23:10									#295
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That's your definition of slavery Ned. Obviously we are talking about a situation where most people disagreed with you, and making you work at a specific job would not be undemocratic.

	06-05-2005 23:14									#296
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Kid, most people do not disagree with me that being tied to a job without the ability to change jobs, or the ablity to move, is a form of slavery. I have to wonder at the thinking of people who would even suggest such a thing.

	06-05-2005 23:24									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Even if that were true it would depend on how you define balance, and it would be subject to interpretation.

It need not be defined, nor interpreted. Balance is inherent in the electorate's ability to change the laws as individual and societal needs evolve.

	06-05-2005 23:26									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have to wonder at the thinking of people who would even suggest such a thing.

You mean like our bosses?

	07-05-2005 00:38									#299
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You mean like our bosses?

You mean you're chained to your desk and your boss refuses to let you quit and go elsewhere?

	07-05-2005 00:55									#300
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It need not be defined, nor interpreted. Balance is inherent in the electorate's ability to change the laws as individual and societal needs evolve.

I don't know if balance can be inherent since it's subjective.