09-05-2005 18:34									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Can't speak for others, but to me, temples are like expensive luxury sliders. Either you spend 30 shields on a temple and add 1 to the max pop, or you use the lux slider to devote a commerce to luxuries and add 1 to the max pop without paying 30 shields. Only once you've expanded enough for the luxury slider to become wasteful due to the lack of city-specific settings, and/or have built Markets and Libs to make devoting money to the luxury slider wasteful, do you really need temples. And yeah, that's probably a cause for our low scores, along with tight city spacing. As for Religious, I like it too, and the cheap happiness buildings+cheap aquas do allow you to build large cities quickly. However, Ag+Sci is also a powerful combination of improvement bonii.

Although ND / GWT do have a habit of building temples.
And they have had considerable success as well.

	09-05-2005 18:41									#62
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#1 doesn't help as much in MP games, less anarchy for everyone than in SP.

It's advantages are really #2 and #3.

quote: Originally posted by Donovan Zoi I still can't help but make another plug for the Religious trait. 1. We will be able to switch governments at will. 2. After only 10 shields, we can pop-rush early Temples for cultural and defensive advantage (less mobility for rival attackers), and only lose 1 pop point. The 20-turn happiness problem is covered by the new Temple. 3. Cheap Cathedrals would give us an opportunity for unrivaled growth. Paired with cheap Aqueducts via the Agricultural trait (Celts), we could grow large fairly quick.

	09-05-2005 18:48									#63
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It's because we like city placement schemes that eliminate the need for Temples for cultural expansion on all but the outer cities.

I'm now playing the Meso American Conquest as the Mayas (Sci & Ind in that conquest.) The only temples I built are for cities getting SacA for corruption fighting. (In that conquest, a Temple + a SacA is cheaper than a courthouse.) I'm using the Codex [equalivent of library) for the cultural expansions on the outer cities. I'm also trying to see if winning via domination before hiting the cultural limit is actually possible in that conquest.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel APO always seems to shun early temples. Dunno why ... the builders will be able to say. But its the reason why APO is always last (or near last)in score in every demo game we play.

	09-05-2005 18:51									#64
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That would be China which is generally much better off waiting for a real conquest (as opposed to a simple war to sag a needed luxary or resource on a border city) until Riders.

Except that against humans, China is bound to get involved in a war early. Fight them now BEFORE they get riders.

quote: Originally posted by Sipahi How about an industrius and militaristic civ? If we preliminarily decide to do so, we have a real chance to attack quickly with archers relatively at the beginning of the game and can wipeout the "soonest" rival('s) to get larger by conquest instead of building own citys. It would be fun to play the Austrians

	09-05-2005 20:12									#65
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The problem with any Civ with an ancient uu is the early ga that you can be forced to have.
Ask the players of GS
The problem with any Civ with an uu that's not ancient is that others may decide to wipe you out before you can get you uu....
Ask Togas.
But wth proper defenses an a good foreign diplomacy you should be able to survive the ancient times without getting wiped out and thus I'd vote for a civ with a golden age that comes in the republic.

	09-05-2005 20:21									#66
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Yeah, the ultra early GA thing is my biggest concern with Sumeria. Your UU is a warrior unit that replaces both warriors and spears. Its also the unit you scout with. Bump into a civ and they trigger your GA (or kill your unit). We could have only one city when this happens.

However, GAs are nice, but they should not be a determining factor. Apo NEVER had a GA in the ISDG1, and it didn't hurt us any (and it wouldn't have helped us much either).

	09-05-2005 20:44									#67
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i would also vote for a civ with doesnt get the GA during despo...
if you are sure we need agri this would lead to the netherlands...they also have a very good UU and seafaring does not hurt either...though i would prefer other traits (like commercial)

militaristic is also very nice but the aztecs (mil/agri) realy suck because of their UU

so my votes would be:

1.netherlands
2.china
3.iroquois

the iroquois got their UU in ancient age but they can use it also in early MA, so they dont have to "waste" their GA due to despo...

i like china because i made good experience with them. we are currently winning the internal DG at GWT with them. and i dont think our loss in the last IDG was due to our civ, but more to diplo and starting position...

	09-05-2005 21:01									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i would also vote for a civ with doesnt get the GA during despo...

Better that than not live until your GA. And Republic or Monarchy is rather quick to get to, at which point a GA is exactly what you want.

quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll if you are sure we need agri this would lead to the netherlands...they also have a very good UU and seafaring does not hurt either...though i would prefer other traits (like commercial)

IF you can survive until Feudalism. The problem is the same as with other civs - better to kill you early while you are UU-less.

	09-05-2005 21:16									#69
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Darekill, whiile was around durng that time, GS had about 4 times as much production as second place in MFG. Eaarly GAs are not really bad if you have a decent core, and are in another government.

SO, to apply this to the iroquois...The iroquois are lucky, in tht they can immediately start research on writing, from turn one, be it at 10% sci for a chairot -> MW upgrade, or full blast.

Now, what I would do here is look for an ally, one that is willing to research, and trade, CoL, with us. Standard philo beeline on our part (we would probably require a filler tech, however), but we complete philo after recieving CoL, and taking republic as the free tech.

	09-05-2005 21:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Better that than not live until your GA. And Republic or Monarchy is rather quick to get to, at which point a GA is exactly what you want.

i'd prefer a GA at the beginning of MA, because then the whole infrastructure is build and the cities are size 12, so the whole land is used...

i also got another question: why do you think everybody will try to kick us out of the game asap? i dont think that my old team (GWT) would have tried this only because you are apo...

	09-05-2005 21:56									#71
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Simple answer: We're paranoid

	09-05-2005 22:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i'd prefer a GA at the beginning of MA, because then the whole infrastructure is build and the cities are size 12, so the whole land is used...

Yes, but you can live, and live perfectly well, with an earlier GA. Once out of Despotism, the timing is mostly a matter of preference. The later one gives you much production, but the early one gives you a longer-lasting boost, so the power of each is about the same.

quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i also got another question: why do you think everybody will try to kick us out of the game asap? i dont think that my old team (GWT) would have tried this only because you are apo...

Not because we are APO. It is having a very powerful unit in the future that can scare people. A preventive strike against the Dutch would be very much in the interest of everyone.


Krill, without Horses, the Iroquis are not so good anymore. The Sumerians get loads of cheap defenders regardless of resources. This means a very easy REX — for sure. In other words, efficiency can be used to its maximum. If you are worried about the early GA, just pick the Maya...

I agree the Philo-beeline is tempting. Then again, others will try it too, right? So, maybe choosing an alternative would be wiser? I know it seems weird, but this is not SP, where getting Philo before the AI can be almost guaranteed. And it does almost require a willing partner to participate — something that is simply not certain.

	09-05-2005 22:34									#73
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We were very temptet in the semifinals to get BAT their GA when we encountered them first. Very, very tempted.
I think in the perspective of today we should have.
They were in Despotism at that time and they would have wasted it.

Would it have changed the outcome of the game?

I doubt it. Maybe BAT would not have made it to the finals but GWT woudn't have either I belive. Because we'd have had a grave enemy on the same continent without an ally.

The other teams would have to just sit there and watch BAT and GWT fight, build up and then jointly kick out the winner of the dogfight.

What do I want to say?

Maybe Modo is right maybe the GA isn'T that important.

	09-05-2005 22:37									#74
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We used the philo/rep beeline the first part of this game. It worked, to

Actually, the iroquois are just fine without horses as any other civ.

---

The Iroquois can get three attack unit if they have either iron or horses right? So we only need one of those resources to be able to build a credible SoD. other civs need iron to get a three attack unit, horses only giving them mobility. They are also able to do sword upgrades

Sumeria have to get iron to get a three attack unit, and every sword they build costs 30 shields. Sure you get ten shield spear, making it almost iimpossible for most people to kill you, but you are making it difficult just to build up offensive forces.


Basicaly the argument between the iroquois and Sumeria is one of wht stratagy you waant to follow.

The Iroquois are more offensively minded, trying to capture land, and make use of it with the commercial trait (so corruption is not so bad).

The Sumerians are defensively minded, trying to out RX other people, and get as many beakers out of it as possible, with there cheap libs and unis.

Both are excellent civs. However, I prefer the Iroquois because they give the team more options.

	09-05-2005 22:39									#75
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but that is because of the game type...if there is only one single winner then there are less alliances and therefore everybody is afraid of him being the next victim of the warmonger...

but don't get me wrong, i don't like warmonging. i'm more the buildertype-player and would be glad to build up our country peacefully...but i did not have good experiences with building in multiplayer

	09-05-2005 22:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Krill, without Horses, the Iroquis are not so good anymore. The Sumerians get loads of cheap defenders regardless of resources. This means a very easy REX — for sure. In other words, efficiency can be used to its maximum. If you are worried about the early GA, just pick the Maya...

That is the great thing about the Iroquis. Yes, without horses, we wouldn't have MW, but we would still have the best trait combo Apolyton could ask for: Ag/Com. This is the strongest point to Iroquis. The UU and GA are just frosting on the cake.

	09-05-2005 23:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Krill The Sumerians are defensively minded, trying to out RX other people, and get as many beakers out of it as possible, with there cheap libs and unis.

Playing Sumeria you are not trying to out-REX other. You are out-REXing them. And they have little or no way to stop you, because of the extremely cheap defenders. The idea of getting safely (and technologicaly advanced) out of the Ancient age is what makes the Sumerians so appealing. Early conquest allows other civs to get some land to prolong the REX, but if the enemy abandons cities, you still need to do actually do the REX (while others build). Now, Sumeria just gets an easy safe REX without wars. It can always go on a rampage a bit later. Which way do you think is more effective?

	10-05-2005 00:15									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Although ND / GWT do have a habit of building temples. And they have had considerable success as well.

A habit of building temples, or a habit of building temples early? I'm somewhat skeptical of the latter, but temples should definitely be built eventually. It is preferable not to use the lux slider once you have any cities, and once you build markets and libs which make commerce devoted to them worth 1.5 commerce, temples begin to be cheaper than the lux slider and worth it long-term.

	10-05-2005 00:19									#79
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I fail to see how a ten shield spear helps REXing. REXing depends on food, not shields, remember. And since both are AGR, and neither is IND, both are in the same position with regards to food and growth.

	10-05-2005 00:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I fail to see how a ten shield spear helps REXing. REXing depends on food, not shields, remember.

Ever been on the receiving end of an Archer-rush or overrun by a high-level AI? Ever had that happen with only warriors, before you started making real units? Well, guess what, Sumeria can not be Archer-rushed effectively, because you can block that with Enkidus. Even a Swordsman-rush would run into severe peoblems due to the huge numbers advantage the Enkidus give you. So yes, a cheap defender helps you REX safely. Other civs have to worry about defending their land grab, no?

quote: Originally posted by Krill And since both are AGR, and neither is IND, both are in the same position with regards to food and growth.

True. But the Iroquis will need to worry about defenses early, while the Sumerians will need to worry once 4-attack units show up. In other words, the Iroquis' REX will slow down sooner, in need of defenders.

	10-05-2005 00:52									#81
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OK, that applies if someone archer rushes us prior to us getting any barracks towns up. It also applies to every civ but Sumeria, Greece, (and, I suppose, Carthage, as well).

	10-05-2005 01:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Playing Sumeria you are not trying to out-REX other. You are out-REXing them. And they have little or no way to stop you, because of the extremely cheap defenders. The idea of getting safely (and technologicaly advanced) out of the Ancient age is what makes the Sumerians so appealing. Early conquest allows other civs to get some land to prolong the REX, but if the enemy abandons cities, you still need to do actually do the REX (while others build). Now, Sumeria just gets an easy safe REX without wars. It can always go on a rampage a bit later. Which way do you think is more effective?

Exactly.

	10-05-2005 01:18									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Krill OK, that applies if someone archer rushes us prior to us getting any barracks towns up. It also applies to every civ but Sumeria, Greece, (and, I suppose, Carthage, as well).

It applies as long as no 4-attack units are around, which is "a bit" longer than just after possible Archer-rushes. The idea is, you can keep REXing until every place is covered, and only then start worrying about offensive units at all. This is much longer than most other Agricultural civs can go on REXing safely. Also, you get many more upgradeable defenders than other civs. The strong defenders of Greece and Carthage do not give you that, and of course, they are not Agricultural.

	10-05-2005 02:07									#84
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Game is practically over by the Modern Era

And there is another way to get a GA besides the UU. Wonders, which I highly recomend that any civ with a late middle ages or later UU do. Athough I suppose it would be fun to see if you can acheive a domination victory before your GA expires if you trigure it with the Calvary replacement UUs or Panzers in a SP game.

quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i'd prefer a GA at the beginning of MA, because then the whole infrastructure is build and the cities are size 12, so the whole land is used... i also got another question: why do you think everybody will try to kick us out of the game asap? i dont think that my old team (GWT) would have tried this only because you are apo...

	10-05-2005 02:14									#85
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Well, on all but the highest difficulty levels, you'd have a point in SP games, but in MP games, under defended cities far from home invite attacks.

As the Sumerians, you have the defensive advantage of spears without the cost.

quote: Originally posted by Krill I fail to see how a ten shield spear helps REXing. REXing depends on food, not shields, remember. And since both are AGR, and neither is IND, both are in the same position with regards to food and growth.

	10-05-2005 02:17									#86
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Actually, if someone picks Persia, a 4 Attack Unit is adviable fairly early on.

Still, I'd rather fight off a Persian Immortal attack with Enkius than Hoplites or NM given the unit costs.

quote: It applies as long as no 4-attack units are around, which is "a bit" longer than just after possible Archer-rushes

	11-05-2005 19:56									#87
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Actually, if someone picks Persia, a 4 Attack Unit is adviable fairly early on. Still, I'd rather fight off a Persian Immortal attack with Enkius than Hoplites or NM given the unit costs.

The Immortal is powerful, but slow. That's what makes the Gaelic Sword so attractive. It's a bit expensive, but (once again) having the Celts gives us the traits needed to stay competitive in the final game.

Consider this: In the rules discussion currently underway at the UN, there is emerging consensus that the game can be won by points if no other victory conditions are met. With this in mind, we can remain competitive in points if we allow ourselves to build cheap Temples and especially Cathedrals. Paired with the Agricultural trait, we will have more happy citizens --- and more points!

CGN had the Celts in our game and ran away with points, even over CDZ.

As a final word, we will not win the final game by diplomacy alone. We will be facing two cutthroats (CDZ, PAL) and a powerful builder (CGN), along with two wildcards(C3B, Batrachos). Since we will certainly run afoul of one of them in the finals, I don't think we will be afforded the luxury of supporting a bare bones military like we had this game.

Always remember, it was points that got PAL to respect us in the first place. We can rack 'em up as a Religious/Agricultural civ.

	11-05-2005 21:01									#88
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We'd be very competive in points with Sumerians as well.
A longer REX [Agr + cheap defense unit]
And more culture, especally Libaries [which are much higher priority to us than temples anyway] and if the game lasts long enogh Universities.
Both equal a consintly larger land area and population, which is the key to winning by points should it actually come to that.
In addition, we would have an excelent shot at getting at least 1 SGL at some point in the game, which would yield a free expensive Great Wonder; athough we can not rely upon the timing of it.

	11-05-2005 21:58									#89
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Thanks for the response, jon. The Sumerians are now #2 with a bullet.

I guess I would be happy with either one, though I really think we will need a mobile attack unit. Although the increased science would definitely help us out in an all-human PBEM game.

I think that Celts and Sumerians should be in our top 3 choices, so that we are assured of one or the other. Which civ should be our third choice? And since the Sumerians seem like a lock for the Top 3, which other civ is worthy of bumping the Celts from the short list?

	11-05-2005 21:59									#90
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Forget points.....I'd rather be behind in score for the whole game, compiling a tight compact empire that is no.1 in the 3 most important demographics, then build a killer military when it is most needed!