01-05-2005 21:54									#1
	Discussion on the next game - traits and such Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Opening discussion on what we want to have for a Civ in the next game.

What kind of traits and Military should we want to have?

E_T

	01-05-2005 22:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Inka - agricultural and industrious

they have the best scouting unit IMO thus making them expansionistic too

Additionally they are coloured in beautiful pink

	01-05-2005 22:21									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Inca are Agricultural+Expansionistic. Their Chasqui Scout is expansive for a scout, which makes them worse at using the Expansionist trait. Which needs some luck to work out anyway.

Agricultural+Industrious means the Maya. They have the Javelin Thrower - a Slave-producing unit. Incredible power in the early REX.

EDIT: If SGLs are on, the Sumerians (Agricultural+Scientific) are an interesting choice. Cheap Libraries go very well with an extremely cheap defensive unit.

Last edited by Modo44 on 01-05-2005 at 22:38

	02-05-2005 02:09									#4
	Shall we be Persia of the new world? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I put forward the Persians

--------------------------------------------

Industrious
workers complete tasks faster
centre square produces an extra shied once hit "City" and "Metro"

Scientific
Libraries etc cheaper to produce
Nation receives a free tech at the start of each era

--------------------------------------------

The Persians start with Masonry & Bronze Working, which allows instant research to start on Iron Working tech, thus allowing the discovery of Iron as soon as possible. This then allows for the apporpriate infrastructure to be built in that area, thus allowing Unique Unit.

With UU the ancient Golden Age can be enabled, and although this has a bad reputation in many areas of Poly, it is still a bonus, and used shrewdly, would allow the nation to grow and conqueor quickly

--------------------------------------------

Immortals - 4/2/1 (instead of swordsman 3/2/1)
Advances needed - Iron Working
Resources - Iron
Cost - 30 shields

--------------------------------------------

In his description of the battle of Thermopylae (480 BCE), the Greek researcher Herodotus mentions a Persian elite corps which he calls the Ten Thousand or the Athanatoi, the 'Immortals'. He describes them as
a body of picked Persians under the leadership of Hydarnes, the son of Hydarnes. This corps was known as the Immortals, because it was invariably kept up to strength; if a man was killed or fell sick, the vacancy he left was at once filled, so that the total strength of the corps was never less -and never more- than ten thousand.
Of all the troops in Persian army, the native Persians were not only the best but also the most magnificently equipped; their dress and armor I have mentioned already, but I should add that every man glittered with the gold which he carried about his person in unlimited quantity. They were accompanied, moreover, by covered carriages full of their women and servants, all elaborately fitted out. Special food, separate from that of the rest of the army, was brought along for them on dromedaries and mules. (Histories 7.83; tr. Aubrey de Selincourt)
As he indicates, Herodotus has already mentioned the Persian equipment:
The dress of these troops consisted of the tiara, or soft felt cap, embroidered tunic with sleeves, a coat of mail looking like the scales of a fish, and trousers; for arms they carried light wicker shields, quivers slung below them, short spears, powerful bows with cane arrows, and short swords swinging from belts beside the right thigh. (Histories 7.61; tr. Aubrey de Selincourt)
We also learn from Herodotus that this elite corps played an important during the Battle of Thermopylae. The Greeks had blocked a narrow road along the coast and prevented the Persians from invading Greece. However, the Immortals made a detour and were able to attack the Greeks in the rear. They are also mentioned during the second year of the war, in 479 BCE, when they remain in Greece in the army of the Persian commander Mardonius.

The big problem with this elite corps is that they are unknown from other sources. (There are, of course, other Greek and Latin texts that mention the Immortals, but they have taken this name for the Persian elite troops from Herodotus and simply mean: the royal guard.) There is ample evidence from Persia -e.g., the Persepolis fortification tablets- but it does not mention a corps of Immortals. Probably, Herodotus' informant has confused the name Anûšiya ('companions') with Anauša ('Immortals').
The historians of Alexander the Great mention another elite regiment, which they call the Apple Bearers. Their spears had a small metal counterweight to balance the heavy point. Because this counterweight resembled an apple, they received their remarkable surname. Several scholars believe they are identical to the Immortals.

article by Jona Lendering ©

Attachment: persian immortals.jpg
This has been downloaded 112 time(s).

	02-05-2005 02:25									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Paddy, the civ needs to be competitive. The Agricultural ones are by far better than any other choice. Plus, the Maya have cool city names.

	02-05-2005 02:35									#6
	Tired of ads?

Certainly glad it is a discussion then allowing more than 1 point to be put forward and as to names... not sure I remember the default names surviving in a dg strewth, what would I do then....

	02-05-2005 02:47									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree agricultural is quite nice:

Here is a the list:

Agricultural Civs
Iroquois - Commercial - UU: Ancient Age - Mounted Warrior 3.1.2 30 shields
Inca - Expansionist - UU: Ancient Age - Chasqui Scout 1.1.2 20 shields (ignore mountains)
Maya - Industrious - UU: Ancient Age - Javelin Thrower 2.2.1 30 shields (enslavement)
Aztec - Militaristic - UU: Ancient Age - Jaguar Warrior 1.1.2 10 shields
Celtic - Religious - UU: Ancient Age - Gallic Swordsman 3.2.2 40 shields
Sumerian - Scientific - UU: Ancient Age - Enkidu Warrior 1.2.1 10 shields
Dutch - Seafaring - UU: Middle Ages - Swiss Mercenary 1.4.1 30 shields

We'll have to find out the game conditions but Maya seems so powerful.

	02-05-2005 04:01									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Actually, Iroquois sound the best to me.

Ag trait: Look at PAL this game. We NEED the Ag trait.

Com trait: Apolyton's ultimate ability is efficentcy. The Com trait complements our play style perfectly.

UU: Mounted Warrior. A 3 attack ancient age fast unit. It retreats in loosing situations. We would come accros that crap situation that happened with Lucky from the ISDG I. Fast units for a UU is the way to go.

	02-05-2005 05:31									#9
	Suffering from ads?

The Greek choice in game #1 did it's job.

A unit that did not rely on the fickle resource allocation of C3C
An early GA if we needed it.
A tough little UU b@stard that would encourage the more aggressive teams to look elsewhere for a quick conquest.

The trade off was the wasted scientific trait.



I agree with Don though for the next game.
Agr & Commercial = Iroquois.

My only concern would be that we get viewed as an early threat and should be eliminated.
It relys of the fickle resource allocation of C3C. (horses)

Iroquoi or the Maya would be my early vote.

	02-05-2005 05:53									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Iroquois, Celts, and Maya all look good to me.

	02-05-2005 09:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Myia, Iroquois, persian and ottoman, in that order.

	02-05-2005 09:21									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

hehe... some memories of other such discussions come flooding back

	02-05-2005 22:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Iroquois or Sumeria

One can kill anything, the other can survive anything.

--

But we better get a good ****ing start, unlike all the other ISDGs...

	02-05-2005 22:58									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If we are expacting a bad start (Don't hit me now! ), the Maya would be the best. OTOH, the Javelin Thrower is difficult to use — expensive, not very good in wars. More a barb hunter (free Slaves), really.

Sumeria allows easy defense against anything. The numbers possible make them similar to Greece in that regard.

The Iroquis are good, but they do need Horses, or else they are screwed (early target without defense...)


Overall, Sumeria seems best to me.

	03-05-2005 00:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Playing the Irq or Celts could result in us being Archer rushed, on the theory that better to attack us now than be attacked by our UU.

The Sumerians have the best defensive UU of the bunch. It's main disadvantage is that every sword has to be built as a sword.
As an Agricutural civ, they can also make good use of the Scientific traight.

We could be screwed if the map turns out to be a pangena if we pick Incans. See my thread on how bad my start was as Incans in my multiplayer game on a random map.

I'm thinking that I like the Dutch the best for the seafaring ability combined with the agr; there may be competion for them so we also would need our second and third choices to be good ones.

The main use of the Javalan Thrower is barb hunting. It doesn't have the defensive bombard that the normal archer and Bab UU get.

So

#1 Dutch
#2 Sumeria
#3 Maya

	03-05-2005 00:39									#16
	Tired of ads?

It seems to me the Dutch have the same problem as the Iroquois or Celts: better take Poly down now before they get the MA uber-defender.

	03-05-2005 00:56									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep It seems to me the Dutch have the same problem as the Iroquois or Celts: better take Poly down now before they get the MA uber-defender.

Yes, that would be the additional problem. Additional to me having played just one game as the Dutch.


One word about Persia and the Ottomen. By making the Industrious trait weaker, those two have had their teeth pulled — big time.

	03-05-2005 01:34									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

isn't a MA uber-defender less threating than a late AE attacker?

	03-05-2005 02:27									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn isn't a MA uber-defender less threating than a late AE attacker?

Perhaps it is, perhaps not — it depends.

The early AE defender is less threatening than both of them, though. Or, to be more precise, it allows nobody to attack before it becomes available.

	03-05-2005 02:43									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I dislike sumeria because it's uu becomes obsolete so early freeking early.

Iroq are great for early war, but also good for middle war as the numbers they can produce far outweigh the better strength of knights (assuming one goes for them to begin with).

Simple truth is I look more for traits then the UU. Myia are by far the best. Their UU is below average, usefull more as a free worker collecter than anythign else. But Agricultural and industrial are by far the best two in this game. Commercial is a close 3rd.

UU wise, I say go with Germany or Ottomans.

	03-05-2005 06:38									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It's time for Apolyton to beat the war drums!

Chinese! Militaristic and Industrious. The rider is a good UU as well.

	03-05-2005 06:58									#22
	Remove this text

Having played the Chinese in the PTWDG, I would like to say that although the Rider is a good unit, it was NOT the reason why GoW did so well (I would attribute that to Leo's).

To much reliance on resources.

The military trait is a waste. Cheap barracks? So what. Build Sun Tzu. Greater chance of MGL? I know that it is susposed to happen, but I have never experienced a noticable increase in MGLs with this trait.

And the Industrious trait is not as strong as before.

	03-05-2005 07:54									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Iriquois and Maya for me.

--Togas

	03-05-2005 19:04									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What??? Summeria's UU is adviable from 4000 BC and it's first upgrade isn't until Fedualism in the Middle Ages. That's at least an entire era!

And until/unless unit support comes into play, a stack of 3 Eniku warriors is more cost effective than 1 Pike. [Same price]

quote: Originally posted by GodKing I dislike sumeria because it's uu becomes obsolete so early freeking early. Iroq are great for early war, but also good for middle war as the numbers they can produce far outweigh the better strength of knights (assuming one goes for them to begin with). Simple truth is I look more for traits then the UU. Myia are by far the best. Their UU is below average, usefull more as a free worker collecter than anythign else. But Agricultural and industrial are by far the best two in this game. Commercial is a close 3rd. UU wise, I say go with Germany or Ottomans.

	03-05-2005 19:06									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Watch and be amazed as every other civ starting in 4000 BC all ally against Apolyton. We must kill them now before they get Riders!!!

quote: Originally posted by SirOsis It's time for Apolyton to beat the war drums! Chinese! Militaristic and Industrious. The rider is a good UU as well.

	03-05-2005 20:23									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So what is the next game going to be like? Is it last man standing or meeting victory conditions?

	04-05-2005 03:29									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn What??? Summeria's UU is adviable from 4000 BC and it's first upgrade isn't until Fedualism in the Middle Ages. That's at least an entire era! And until/unless unit support comes into play, a stack of 3 Eniku warriors is more cost effective than 1 Pike. [Same price]

I have to agree with joncnunn here. A very cheap UU that can put put out in a moments notice. Adding to that with the Ag trait and cheap lib's it is a very good idea.
You go for the early tech lead; fast growth; and can build very reasonable defenders in flash.

And I'd have to say that 2 Enkidu Warriors have an overall better defensive strength than 1 Pike. You just need to make sure you have enough cities to support your troops.

	04-05-2005 08:32									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Celts: Religious and agricultural, the two best traits in C3C.

Iroquois: wouldn't be so bad either, plus the Mounted Warrior rocks.

I still, however, prefer Civs with a medieval-age UU which means the Dutch are ok.

BUT above all things, the reputation of this site is that if we are not killed early, we have a good shot at winning whatever demogame we are in. Thus, I believe having a civ like Sumeria will pretty much render us invincible in the early stages, much like Carthage did in the PTW ISDG. Just think about all we accomplished in that game thanks to our early-game strategy.

So, I vote Sumeria.

	04-05-2005 20:17									#29
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Good points, in fact I'm changing the order of my top 3:

1. Sumeria
2. Dutch
3. Maya

	05-05-2005 00:59									#30
	Tired of ads?

Things must be going well! We are already discussing the next game......

Take it from a former Maya(CFC), we most likely won't get full enslavement benefits from the Mayan Javilineer due to our starting distance from other civs. With five civs in the semi-final game, we were only able to enslave some barbs and very few rival units.

With six civs (and slightly closer range), we would probably be best served by a mid-AA unit, like the ones offered by the Celts or the Carthaginans. These units are unveiled right about the time when land disputes may begin.

For the record, my favorite traits are Religious and Seafaring, but I also like Agricultural. Therefore I am leaning toward the Celts.

My Top 3:

Celts: Awesome traits and a mobile attack UU. Religious trait keeps us from postponing crucial government switches during wartime, and allows us to culturally claim our land via Temples.

Byzantines: The Dromon! We rule the seas in the early game and can build cheap Libraries(cheap culture here, too!). Seafaring trait allows us to meet opponents first, giving us a diplomatic advantage.

Carthage: Early-game survival is ensured, plus the workers can enhance the land quickly. Minimal cheap builds, though. With the Numidian Mercenary, we may be able to claim disputed land by staging them a bit beyond our current borders. Seafaring diplo advantage exists here too.