04-05-2005 02:43									#91
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quote: Name me one other thing taught in science curriculum that postulates miraculous intervention. This is a bizarre assertion on your part.

Nothing. But most scientific instruction at the elementary, middle, and high school levels is rife with inconsistencies, incorrect assertions, and often taught by teachers who don't know the difference between osmosis and osmium.

Hence, "roughly" equal quality.

quote: If you consider it more insidious, then why do you have "no problem" with it?

Because it's fracking Kansas. If they want to be left behind in the technological world, let them. After all, they'll have their Left Behind books to love, cherish, and believe in.

	04-05-2005 02:54									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Name me one other thing taught in science curriculum that postulates miraculous intervention. This is a bizarre assertion on your part. Nothing. But most scientific instruction at the elementary, middle, and high school levels is rife with inconsistencies, incorrect assertions, and often taught by teachers who don't know the difference between osmosis and osmium. Hence, "roughly" equal quality.

Poor teaching of science has nothing to do with the designated curriculum. The precedent of letting something like ID into the curriculum would be quite damaging.

quote: Because it's fracking Kansas. If they want to be left behind in the technological world, let them. After all, they'll have their Left Behind books to love, cherish, and believe in.

Right, because the IDists will be content to stop there and they wouldn't use such a "victory" in Kansas as momentum to proceed to other states with similar tactics. Like, oh, Georgia (Macon County?), or Pennsylvania (Dover), or...

This attitude is precisely the problem. "Oh, it will never be a problem here, just in those backwards places..." IDists aren't confining themselves to Kansas.

At any rate, I'd rather not leave Kansas kids to such devices. They have a right to a sound education without interference from religious nuts.

	04-05-2005 03:01									#93
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quote: Right, because the IDists will be content to stop there and they wouldn't use such a "victory" in Kansas as momentum to proceed to other states with similar tactics. Like, oh, Georgia (Macon County?), or Pennsylvania (Dover), or...

Macon County? ID and Evolution are already having issues in Cobb County, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

quote: This attitude is precisely the problem. "Oh, it will never be a problem here, just in those backwards places..." IDists aren't confining themselves to Kansas.

No, they're not. But they won't win where they don't have a stranglehold.

quote: At any rate, I'd rather not leave Kansas kids to such devices. They have a right to a sound education without interference from religious nuts.

Why? The religious nuts are paying taxes for it. They're voting in people who'll do their bidding for it.

	04-05-2005 04:07									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Macon County? ID and Evolution are already having issues in Cobb County, which is a suburb of Atlanta. No, they're not. But they won't win where they don't have a stranglehold.

Why should they be allowed to have any kind of base even if it should happen to be Kansas (wich I don't know anything about, so I don't know why it should be naturally for them to be a base for ID/creationism) ? If they can be fought, then they should be - otherwise you end up with just more ignorants that belive in nonverifiable stories instead of people who asks questions.

quote: The religious nuts are paying taxes for it. They're voting in people who'll do their bidding for it.

I guess that that is one of the big reasons to divide religion and legislation. If you wan't an example how bad it can be, then just take soviet in the 30'es - can't remember his name while writing, but he had a theory about socialistic science wich almost destroyed the country. Some jerks may say that that was just good, but that isn't relevant here - it's the parallel - if you base your reseach and derived production upon fantasies not based upon facts, then you are surely destroying yourself.

	04-05-2005 04:25									#95
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quote: Some jerks may say that that was just good, but that isn't relevant here - it's the parallel - if you base your reseach and derived production upon fantasies not based upon facts, then you are surely destroying yourself.

Let them reap what they sow.

	04-05-2005 04:27									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Some jerks may say that that was just good, but that isn't relevant here - it's the parallel - if you base your reseach and derived production upon fantasies not based upon facts, then you are surely destroying yourself. Let them reap what they sow.

I didn't expect you to be one of the jerks, but if you insist, then you are welcome.

	04-05-2005 04:30									#97
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quote: I didn't expect you to be one of the jerks, but if you insist, then you are welcome.

Honestly? We've got a few more important things to take care of, like fracking Darfur, NKorea, and Iraq, than stopping a bunch of nincompoops from ruining their own lives.

Also, if you're not bright enough to adapt to changing times, and choose to throw all your weight behind outdated or incorrect beliefs, you deserve whatever you get.

It's why I don't want any bailouts of Delta (though I'll be quite sad if it goes), why I hope the RIAA dies soon, and why I have no pity for the Christian Scientists who refused medical treatment.

	04-05-2005 04:55									#98
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Oh, I don't care if someone does harm to himself based upon his belief, so I don't cry if a CS dies because he doesn't want medic treatment.

You are worried about what happens in Dafur etc ? Well, what if these ID's and creationists really get power ? Not just Kansas (haven't yet figured out what is so special about Kansas), but enough to control US ? I can see plenty of scenarios. First of all, no more sensible research, next, current activities based upon non ID/creationist activities would be banned - admitted, it will take years, but in the end it will be catastrophic. Another scenario - a regime based on religion - the true religion - will have acces to critical buttons - admitted - it will solve the Nkorea problem.

Do you really think that Kansas is the sole goal for introduction of ID/creationism ? Or that you can limit to this particular state if they get their will there ? You may think that kansas are the only stupid state in US, but if I'm not wrong, then there are a whole bunch of other candidates just waiting.

	04-05-2005 05:49									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Honestly? We've got a few more important things to take care of, like fracking Darfur, NKorea, and Iraq, than stopping a bunch of nincompoops from ruining their own lives.

Viewed from a certain angle, all those examples (darfur, NK, Iraq) are examples of a bunch of nincompoops ruining their own lives...

	04-05-2005 07:17									#100
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat then just take soviet in the 30'es - can't remember his name while writing, but he had a theory about socialistic science wich almost destroyed the country.

You're thinking of Lysenko, and he didn't almost destroy the country. His theories just set back Soviet agricultural science for a while.

	04-05-2005 07:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Macon County? ID and Evolution are already having issues in Cobb County, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

I meant Cobb County.

quote: No, they're not. But they won't win where they don't have a stranglehold.

You're being naive if you don't think they can get their hold in a lot more places besides Kansas. The entire south is ripe for the picking.

quote: Why? The religious nuts are paying taxes for it. They're voting in people who'll do their bidding for it.

Public schools shouldn't be practicising religious indoctrination with kids, no matter what the tax payers want. Remember that a government-run school can't be endorsing religion, now.

Besides, if a Neo-nazi group was able to somehow get itself elected in some backwater county and passed the teaching of racist dogma in the public schools, wouldn't that be a problem?

	04-05-2005 07:34									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I didn't expect you to be one of the jerks, but if you insist, then you are welcome. Honestly? We've got a few more important things to take care of, like fracking Darfur, NKorea, and Iraq, than stopping a bunch of nincompoops from ruining their own lives.

I fail to see how confronting this issue will somehow distract from our ability to work on those situations.

quote: Also, if you're not bright enough to adapt to changing times, and choose to throw all your weight behind outdated or incorrect beliefs, you deserve whatever you get. It's why I don't want any bailouts of Delta (though I'll be quite sad if it goes), why I hope the RIAA dies soon, and why I have no pity for the Christian Scientists who refused medical treatment.

So how about those Christian Scientists who refuse medical treatment for their children? Would you pity a child that dies because of his parents' beliefs? If so, you should still pity the kid who will have to go to school with this claptrap.

This whole issue is a fight over "indoctrination" of children. The fundies think (wrongly) that science curriculum with evolution indoctrinates kids to atheism and immoral lifestyles. They want to indoctrinate kids into anti-science and religiosity. I don't think it's ever a good idea to let a public school be a place where this happens.

	04-05-2005 07:50									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And theology is a simple subject that can be covered in that same time?

You still don't understand (even though theology is child's play when compared with any modern branches of science), this whole debate is not about evidence or coherent arguments.

Creationism is not about evidence or coherent arguments. Creationism has no theory. It is merely about picking at some seemingly weak point in evolution and scream "Look, God!" at the top of the proponent's lungs.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The key is not to throw the entire mass of a discipline at the debate, but to choose points that are your strongest evidence in favour of your position.

No, this is not how a evolution-creationism debate works. The creationist side invariably pick something that a layperson don't understand, and say, "Ha, evolution is refuted."

Of course this is done dispite such an argument has been refuted numerous times in the scientific community, because the layperson doesn't know.

The refutation will then involve some lengthy and usually dry scientific explanation.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I am not convinced that just because a subject is complicated, that it cannot be argued well in a debate format. The tricky part is to choose how you are going to be presenting your argument.

As the creationist side is the side that starts these things, they get to choose their audience, weapon, venue, etc. They won't let the other side to have much control.

	04-05-2005 20:08									#104
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@ Ben ignorance in this thread.

	04-05-2005 20:14									#105
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I actually still can't believe that there are still people who don't acknowledge evolution, considering taht there is a bug today that feeds on Nylon, an artificial material that came into existence only a few decades ago.

	04-05-2005 20:21									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I actually still can't believe that there are still people who don't acknowledge evolution, considering taht there is a bug today that feeds on Nylon, an artificial material that came into existence only a few decades ago.

Or that Russian inmates are dying from drug-resistant Turberculosis.

	04-05-2005 20:22									#107
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Then again, the creationists probably think drug-resistant diseases are a punishment from God.

	04-05-2005 20:30									#108
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Gotta teach'em Rooskies

	04-05-2005 20:42									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Gotta teach'em Rooskies

The scary thing is this drug resistant TB strain can spread quickly.

	04-05-2005 20:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I actually still can't believe that there are still people who don't acknowledge evolution, considering taht there is a bug today that feeds on Nylon, an artificial material that came into existence only a few decades ago.

That's a good bug to have, I wonder if the scientists are going to evolve more microbes that can munch on other synthetic materials.

	04-05-2005 21:42									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's a good bug to have, I wonder if the scientists are going to evolve more microbes that can munch on other synthetic materials.

They have oil-eating microbes that clean up oil spills, but I think those are unmodified bacteria that live around natural oil seeps. In NE Minnesota they use chemoautotrophic bacteria to extract copper and heavey metals from thier ores, very cool. If there is a energy source, chances are that bacteria have already found it. I hope we get some plasitic-eaters, it would sure help clean up the landfills.

	04-05-2005 21:48									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And science is a human view of this universe, that is dependent on method, and that is dependent on the feeble human mind. There is no reason to believe that the universal reality can be covered by science, just like there is no reason to believe that the universal reality can be covered by religions (what religions claim). Science is a simplification of reality. It is not THE reality. Many scientists should know better than to put as much faith in science as the religionists put in their god.

Yep

	04-05-2005 23:09									#113
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quote: So how about those Christian Scientists who refuse medical treatment for their children? Would you pity a child that dies because of his parents' beliefs?

I'd pity them. Which is why if the child dies, the parents should be thrown in the slammer.

quote: If so, you should still pity the kid who will have to go to school with this claptrap.

Quite frankly, if the kids are hearing this and the parents don't like it, they should be trying harder to get their message heard, or leave.

quote: This whole issue is a fight over "indoctrination" of children. The fundies think (wrongly) that science curriculum with evolution indoctrinates kids to atheism and immoral lifestyles. They want to indoctrinate kids into anti-science and religiosity. I don't think it's ever a good idea to let a public school be a place where this happens.

I don't think it's a good place either, to let this happen. However, I just don't see why Kansas going down the tubes means Illinois, civilized Atlanta, New York, and California are somehow going to be victimized by this claptrap.

Sure, it'd be nice to have Kansas join the modern world, sure, it'd be nice to have these fundies understand how idiotic they really are... but pick your battles. And frankly, I'm sick and tired of having to deal with idiocy. Fundamentalists aren't interested in debate. They're not interested in compromise. They're not interested in hearing anything other than their twisted belief of the Truth that is from the Good Book from the Word of God. There's only so much you can argue with Ned/Fez/Agathon/Asher before you throw up your arms in disgust, and let them think whatever the **** they want.

Seal them off in their own little Gaza, and when they're ready to join the real world, welcome them.

It's the entire prodigal son business. Let the wayward sons of Kansas carry on and ruin their lives.

	04-05-2005 23:20									#114
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If I'm not wrong, Texas is quite high on the list in joining this madness.

	04-05-2005 23:20									#115
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Frankly, the only state in the south I'd shed a tear losing to this madness is Georgia. And that's only 'cause it's on my mind, what with being born there and all.

And the fact that Atlanta's there. It could be the Lost City of Atlanta, what with Coca-Cola...

	04-05-2005 23:26									#116
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat If I'm not wrong, Texas is quite high on the list in joining this madness.

Yup, the Creationists won't stop untill they have outlawed all science. Q3 thinks it will not infect elsewere, it will, and it is. I think the best way to stop this isto make any diploma given in a school district that gives in to these Fundies invalid. When thier kids are trated like high-school drop-outs they will change thier mind really fast.

	04-05-2005 23:34									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You're thinking of Lysenko, and he didn't almost destroy the country. His theories just set back Soviet agricultural science for a while.

Yep, thats the name. I may have exaggerated a bit, but for almost 35 years his word was law in soviet science, and I think ha did a lot of damage in that period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

	04-05-2005 23:34									#118
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Creationism and Fundamentalism is like Communi Terrorism. You can't fight it everywhere, because it's an infectious and insidious weed.

The best you can do is contain it, refuse it a hold where modern societies live.

When their systems, when their lives implode upon themselves, they will have only their twisted beliefs to blame, and they'll see the light.

Last edited by Q Cubed on 04-05-2005 at 23:43

	04-05-2005 23:42									#119
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quote: I actually still can't believe that there are still people who don't acknowledge evolution, considering taht there is a bug today that feeds on Nylon, an artificial material that came into existence only a few decades ago.

What about people who are almost complete sceptics?

	04-05-2005 23:49									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Creationism and Fundamentalism is like Communi Terrorism. You can't fight it everywhere, because it's an infectious and insidious weed. The best you can do is contain it, refuse it a hold where modern societies live. When their systems, when their lives implode upon themselves, they will have only their twisted beliefs to blame, and they'll see the light.

Nope, that is the way it absolutely NOT should be handled.

The real effective treatment is to draw them out into the ligth and expose their stupidity.