03-05-2005 22:21									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Who would have thought that a town like Columbus, Ohio could support a soccer team so well, for instance.

Believe it or not a friend of mine used to play for Columbus Crew, he got cut when they limited the amount of foriegners allowed in any one team.

	03-05-2005 22:25									#62
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quote: How is that countering that attendance isn't that great?

Like you say...

quote: It's a good number and will sustain a league

And that's what fits for the US market. We will end up with 20 or 30 stadiums that hold 20,000 to 30,000 fans. The more established teams may be able to able to fill bigger stadiums consistently. The college soccer game may start to fill up the undercard, so to speak.

This may not sound like much, but aside from the biggest Euro teams, these kind of numbers are rather respectable.

	03-05-2005 22:35									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And that's what fits for the US market. We will end up with 20 or 30 stadiums that hold 20,000 to 30,000 fans. The more established teams may be able to able to fill bigger stadiums consistently. The college soccer game may start to fill up the undercard, so to speak. This may not sound like much, but aside from the biggest Euro teams, these kind of numbers are rather respectable.

Yes, but our teams don't sell out their stadiums . Ever watch an MLS game on ESPN2... looks like no one is there. In order to be world beaters, as you were implying earlier, that attendance isn't good enough. It doesn't show enough committment to the game. Right now the attendance is good enough for a niche sport, but that won't get you that far in world competition.

Most teams in Europe's top divisions have over 30,000 seats and the smaller parks are sold out. In the US, our smaller stadiums usually are not sold out. LA is our success story in attendance, but they average 21,000 in a park that can hold 27,000 (the Home Depot Center).

	03-05-2005 22:36									#64
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Yeah, 20-30k are ok, I guess, ( but only for 2-3rd tier euro teams). However TV viewers, and TV revenues are much larger in europe, it seems.

	03-05-2005 22:38									#65
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Demographics and immigration will ensure that soccer has a future in the US. In fact it will overtake other sports. – it's just too big

	03-05-2005 22:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui . LA is our success story in attendance, but they average 21,000 in a park that can hold 27,000 (the Home Depot Center).

Because of the high Hispanic population?

	03-05-2005 22:39									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Demographics and immigration will ensure that soccer has a future in the US. In fact it will overtake other sports. – it's just too big

Hopefully... the incoming Latino population, however, perfers to focus on the Mexican Soccer League rather than MLS. We'll see if we can tap into those fans.

And a lot of European immigrants focus on European squads rather than MLS ones.

The MLS needs to reach to those fans more, but I'm not sure how.

	03-05-2005 22:40									#68
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Believe it or not a friend of mine used to play for Columbus Crew, he got cut when they limited the amount of foriegners allowed in any one team.

That's cool. Maybe as the number of teams grows they'll be able to take on more foreign players.

Columbus is a good example of what is possible. It's a pretty small town. A little over a million people, including suburbs. They built a soccer-specific stadium that has a capacity of 22,500 with an option to expand to 30,000. $10 - $17 for a ticket. American-style concessions and the like (we like our brews and brats, as Colon alludes to ).

They've found a formula that works in economic terms for the US. Columbus is the 34th largest TV market in the US.

	03-05-2005 22:41									#69
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Because of the high Hispanic population?

Ya... but a high Hispanic population isn't always a recipe for success. FC Dallas is in a high Hispanic location, but only draws 11,000 fans a game.

LA has been such a succes, a new team was put in the city called Chivas USA... which is owned by the owner (Vergara) that owns Chivas in Mexico. It's a transparant ploy to get Hispanic fans of Mexican soccer interested in MLS .

They seem to be doing as well as LA (the Galaxy) in attendance so far this season.

Dallas is still languishing.

	03-05-2005 22:42									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's cool. Maybe as the number of teams grows they'll be able to take on more foreign players. Columbus is a good example of what is possible. It's a pretty small town. A little over a million people, including suburbs. They built a soccer-specific stadium that has a capacity of 22,500 with an option to expand to 30,000. $10 - $17 for a ticket. American-style concessions and the like (we like our brews and brats, as Colon alludes to ). They've found a formula that works in economic terms for the US.

Being a successful league is one thing (and I think the MLS is one, even though it is still losing money). Having a league that produces players that can dominate on the world stage enough so the US becomes a major player in international soccer is something else entirely.

	03-05-2005 22:43									#71
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Does the MLS have a draft/salary cap or is the system more along coventional lines?

	03-05-2005 22:45									#72
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The domestic league will follow international success.

The US tends to ignore sports that they get beat at. That's doubly so for sports that communists would have thrashed them at during the Cold War.

	03-05-2005 22:46									#73
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MLS has what it calls the SuperDraft, which drafts American college players and foriegn players that MLS has gotten the rights to. The MLS is still mostly a single league structure (where the salaries are with the MLS and players leased out to teams... kind of).

There is a salary cap, and IIRC, it's $250,000 base salary with $100,000 in bonuses. Though they bent the rules for Adu who is making close to $500,000 somehow (it has been suggested that most is under the table).

	03-05-2005 22:49									#74
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I'm wondering how games will mix with tv commercials?

	03-05-2005 22:50									#75
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What it'll need is the possibility to get relegated out of the MLS. If there's no risk to being a **** team, any team that's not going to win the championship won't be supported very well as there'll be no real point. The relegation batles in Premier League are always sell outs, the fans they can make a difference with their support.

Also I don't reckon the college _> draft system is going to work if you want to develop players that will succeed internationally. You want academies attached to teams getting the local kids in.

	03-05-2005 22:54									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij I'm wondering how games will mix with tv commercials?

Two systems. One is just like the way it's done in Europe (HDNet, some local TV networks). The second system that ESPN is trying out is a split screen commercial/action. Of course, I prefer the Euro system.

	03-05-2005 22:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij I'm wondering how games will mix with tv commercials?

For the longest time there were in game mentions by the commentators. I think ESPN is not gettting enough money, because this year they unveiled 'Side by side' commericals twice a half where they have a kind of split screen with the commerical on one and the game on the other.

	03-05-2005 22:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue What it'll need is the possibility to get relegated out of the MLS. If there's no risk to being a **** team, any team that's not going to win the championship won't be supported very well as there'll be no real point. The relegation batles in Premier League are always sell outs, the fans they can make a difference with their support. Also I don't reckon the college _> draft system is going to work if you want to develop players that will succeed internationally. You want academies attached to teams getting the local kids in.

I don't think there is going to be relegation in the MLS for a loooooong time. It's contrary to most American sports and tends to make television stations nervous (what if the big market teams go down).

And college soccer is all over and so will survive for a few more decades at least. There are youth acadamies, but attached to the national team, not individual teams.

	03-05-2005 22:58									#79
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College baseball thrives, even though there are three layers of minor league baseball. You see people being drafted out of college all the time. I don't see a problem. The fans will distribute themselves among the available venues as they wish and quality instruction will be available in several forms.

Last edited by DanS on 03-05-2005 at 23:07

	03-05-2005 23:06									#80
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im an american, and I know that MLS sucks. like what red said, its equal to a low european division. which makes me wonder why we spend $500,000 (half of the salary cap) on one player, when it takes a whole team to play better, and we can get cheaper AND better players from europe.

and get rid of that foreign person limit per team. another silly rule. remember when games couldnt finish in ties? they would go to a shootout? another silly rule.

	03-05-2005 23:10									#81
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500k is peanuts.

	03-05-2005 23:10									#82
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and the reason no one goes to burn games because they finished last in the west last year, and didnt make the playoffs.

thats another thing about mls. 8 out of the 10 teams make the playoffs hahahahahahah

	03-05-2005 23:12									#83
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Yeah, it's to avoid the horrid ending to the NASL, which was the soccer league before hand. You had a few teams paying MILLIONS to get older stars like Pele and Beckenbauer playing in the US in the late 70s and the teams without the money couldn't survive. The league basically imploded on itself.

So there is a low salary cap to prevent that from happening again. As well as incredible amounts of centralization.

	03-05-2005 23:12									#84
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500k isnt peanuts when the total you can spend on your entire team is $1.25 million.

	03-05-2005 23:14									#85
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College soccer is not a big audience draw though is it (not like football or basketball). In a revenue sense for TV stations it'd make more sense to have the best players playing, even if they're 17 or so (remember Rooney's debut for Everton was at age 16 and he's still only 19 now).

As long as you use the american system (no relegation, draft systems forcing players to go to certain teams, salary caps etc) you won't compete on an international level, at least with crowd numbers, and probably with attracting bigger name stars.

I know it's brought you basketball dominance for a good while (baseball and american football noone really plays outside of the US (and even then Cuba would possibly beat you), and ice hockey you rarely win), but now that that's being picked up more and more around the world you seem to be starting to struggle to beat everyone the way you used to.

Similarly, if the main bulk of your international players atm come from the MLS and will do so for the foreseeable future, then you won't challenge. The top players at international tournaments will ahve European Champion's League experience, which is of a higher quality typically than international football. If you throw people from the MLS (or English 2nd divsion like say Northern Ireland) into that, you'll get beaten.

	03-05-2005 23:18									#86
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quote: 500k isnt peanuts when the total you can spend on your entire team is $1.25 million

define "spend". Does it mean the aquisition of new players only?

	03-05-2005 23:19									#87
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quote: baseball and american football noone really plays outside of the US (and even then Cuba would possibly beat you)

Um... what? Firstly, our MLB all-stars would smoke Cuba. Secondly, most of Central America and Japan play baseball, not really no one there.

quote: f the main bulk of your international players atm come from the MLS

It's half MLS and half international players... at least it was recently. Don't remember the numbers now. We also have a bunch of young players who'll be ready to make the jump to Europe in the next few years (Eddie Johnson, Clint Dempsey, and the like).

	03-05-2005 23:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: 500k isnt peanuts when the total you can spend on your entire team is $1.25 million define "spend". Does it mean the aquisition of new players only?

No, that's $1.25 million on total player salaries. Transfer fees don't count (and usually are done by the league).

	03-05-2005 23:22									#89
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thats why all our good players are in europe. Beasley even gets some playing time at PSV until he got injured. so we send them our good players, and we take their crap players, who are actually better then what would be left when our internationals go abroad, and pay them less then what we pay these greedy **** players we have, and thats how you build a team up. DC was stupid to sign Adu to that monster contract who didnt play especially well either.

and, for the the americas, liverpool v. chelsea is on in 10 minutes on ESPN2

	03-05-2005 23:24									#90
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DC also won the MLS Cup last year. They aren't hurting for signing Adu... and the merchandizing fills their coffers nice.