08-05-2005 22:31									#61
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Dr. Strangelove, well if the point about "the pill" and lack of cause and effect, either we don't understand the mechanism very well, or perhaps the whole theory is bunk.

	08-05-2005 22:32									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Man, I would LOVE to be a lesbian.

You know you don't get to have a penis anymore, and you have to screw ugly fat chicks.

	09-05-2005 01:30									#64
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quote: Yes, clearly those people who decapitate themselves will be unable to get much further use out of their brain. I nominate a few Christian and Muslim fundamentalists to test this hypothesis....

What if the tests show that we have better function after becoming a Christian?

	09-05-2005 01:41									#65
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There haven't been any well designed histological studies of gay and straight cadaver brains, so the data from the studies done in the past is suspect. They compared the size of certain cell clusters in the brains of cadavers of straight men and gay men. There were several probelems in the study, among which were the very small number of subjects studied (less than ten), and the disparities between the two groups. The straight group tended to be much older introducing the possibility that some of them might have suffered from degenerative brain diseases. A large portion of the gay group died of AIDS, which we know now infects the brain in addition to the immune systema and other organ systems. The thing is AFAIK the study was never repeated, which is often a sign that the result was not repeatable because it was based on errors of technique or design.

	09-05-2005 01:56									#66
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quote: There were several probelems in the study, among which were the very small number of subjects studied (less than ten),

Interesting. I didn't know that Dr. Strangelove.

	09-05-2005 04:04									#67
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There used to be an era when whites held unquestionable faith in scientific racism.

	09-05-2005 04:06									#68
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What's your point?

	09-05-2005 04:07									#69
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Your med-student daughter?? Wait.. I thought you were about my age? Jeesh, you're an old fart!

But that's ok.

	09-05-2005 04:10									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What's your point?

That maybe the theories on brain differences between gays and straights is bogus, just as theories on brain differences between races has been shown to be bogus.

	09-05-2005 04:25									#71
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It was a gay researcher who first noticed the differences between gay and straight brains. Gays immediately jumped upon this as proof that they were naturally gay, since if they were naturally gay, then it was unfair to persecute them for something that wasn't their fault (as if it would be okay to persecutate gays if they had made a choice to be gay--but unfortunately some people do think that way).

	09-05-2005 05:03									#72
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We do not have to rely on the "it's not a choice" argument to advocate for equal rights.


Peope choose their religious beliefs, for example, yet we affirm that people should have equal rights regardless of one's religion.



I am weary of relying too heavily on the "it's not a choice" argument for advocacy of equal rights regardless of sexual orientation. Yes, I believe that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, but until we know exactly how it develops . . . . . .

	09-05-2005 05:12									#73
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I want to know the genetic cause of the gay predilection for musical theatre.

	09-05-2005 05:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Peope choose their religious beliefs, for example, yet we affirm that people should have equal rights regardless of one's religion.

The difference is more people respect religion than homosexuality. In a better world, there'd be more gay people than religionists, and far more respect for the former than the latter.

	09-05-2005 05:54									#75
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Until I know for certain how sexual orientation develops, I'm not going to rely exclusively on the argument, "it's not a choice" because there are other, and perhaps, even more effective, ways to advocate for equal rights.

	09-05-2005 07:17									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Your med-student daughter?? Wait.. I thought you were about my age? Jeesh, you're an old fart! But that's ok.

Nah, you are about the same age as my daughter. But, still, I don't hold your lack of experience against you.

	09-05-2005 07:20									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun We do not have to rely on the "it's not a choice" argument to advocate for equal rights. Peope choose their religious beliefs, for example, yet we affirm that people should have equal rights regardless of one's religion. I am weary of relying too heavily on the "it's not a choice" argument for advocacy of equal rights regardless of sexual orientation. Yes, I believe that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, but until we know exactly how it develops . . . . . .

Well, I think we should study it, as the opponents of gay rights insist it is a choice or a mental disorder. From a theological point of view, such proof will go a long way to "converting" the religions.

	09-05-2005 07:23									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Until I know for certain how sexual orientation develops, I'm not going to rely exclusively on the argument, "it's not a choice" because there are other, and perhaps, even more effective, ways to advocate for equal rights.

Because gays have done such a bang up job of getting their civil rights recongized until now.

While a majority of Americans do not approve of homosexuality, you will not get them to agree to civil rights for gays if they think homosexuality is a choice. When people think gays have no choice but to be gay, they then agree it's wrong to discriminate, even if they don't approve of homosexuality.

This is a seperate question from whether or not we should find out the truth. I don't care one way or the other. I see homosexuality as something which is, and something which is beautiful, and that sex between consenting adults isn't a shameful thing. To me, it wouldn't matter whether people chose to be gay or not. I'm not in the majority.

	09-05-2005 07:53									#79
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quote: It was a gay researcher who first noticed the differences between gay and straight brains.

Precisely so. These differences are not trumpeted by the religious right, rather they are celebrated by the gay rights folks.

In the same way that we see folks who profit by assuming there are racial differences today.

	09-05-2005 08:01									#80
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Well, the religious right are evil people motivated only by hatred towards humanity, so we can discount anything they have to say.

	09-05-2005 08:10									#81
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Well, I think everyone ought to be listened to, regardless of how they are branded by others.

Even Communists can contribute to society on occasion.

	09-05-2005 10:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because gays have done such a bang up job of getting their civil rights recongized until now. While a majority of Americans do not approve of homosexuality, you will not get them to agree to civil rights for gays if they think homosexuality is a choice. When people think gays have no choice but to be gay, they then agree it's wrong to discriminate, even if they don't approve of homosexuality. This is a seperate question from whether or not we should find out the truth. I don't care one way or the other. I see homosexuality as something which is, and something which is beautiful, and that sex between consenting adults isn't a shameful thing. To me, it wouldn't matter whether people chose to be gay or not. I'm not in the majority.

Now I'm not sure who is sexier with the rolling eyes smilie -- you or JohnT.

Anyway, relying on only one means to advocate for equal rights just doesn't make sense to me, when we use other effective arguments as well. Yes, I understand what you're saying about the strength of the argument that if it's not a choice, then discrimination cannot be justified.

But to me, that is still not a completely solid ground to stand on, since our rights can continued to be denied until we can prove how sexual orientation develops, which will show that is not a choice. So in the meantime, I'm for effective arguments that can bring change sooner than when we have proven how sexual orientation develops.

	09-05-2005 10:51									#83
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quote: So in the meantime, I'm for effective arguments that can bring change sooner than when we have proven how sexual orientation develops.

Why the rush?

Are gays being beaten in the streets?

Are they denied education and representation?

Are they segregated and spat upon?

What is the pressing urgency behind this change, Mr. Fun?

	09-05-2005 10:53									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why the rush? Are gays being beaten in the streets? Are they denied education and representation? Are they segregated and spat upon? What is the pressing urgency behind this change, Mr. Fun?

That's funny . . . . .


some people who professed to have sympathized with Martin Luther King Jr. wrote letters to him while he was in prison, asking him what the rush was as well.


True . . . . .

blacks suffered much more violent forms of repression and discrimination that showed more obviously what the "rush" was.

But I did not know that there was a timetable that all civil rights movements had to abide by. What volume, chapter, section, and paragraph is this rule located in?

	09-05-2005 10:55									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Are gays being beaten in the streets? Are they denied education and representation? Are they segregated and spat upon? What is the pressing urgency behind this change, Mr. Fun?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
He (we) is tired of it?

	09-05-2005 10:58									#86
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I found the rule on the time thingy for civil rights movements . . . . . .





standard timetable for civil rights movement, vol. 3, chap. 7, section 9.3, paragraphs 1 - 3: the sooner the better

	09-05-2005 11:02									#87
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Justice delayed is justice denied.

	09-05-2005 11:04									#88
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While Ben is recuperating from my response, I think I'm going to google around for an avatar -- it's high time that I get one already.

	09-05-2005 11:08									#89
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Ben doesn't recuperate. Ben ignores then repeats.

	09-05-2005 11:08									#90
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damn it -- you ruined my naive hope that he had changed