09-05-2005 20:58									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski i can answer somewhat i dont care what the gays do i just dont want to hear bout it or see it on display. i feel the same as for straight folks. before im hung and shot sexually behavior is a private affair not for the public.

You mean you're grossed out when you see a straight couple pecking each other on the lips, holding hands, or having their arms around each other??

	09-05-2005 21:02									#152
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it disturbs me

JM

	09-05-2005 21:02									#153
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You mean you're grossed out when you see a straight couple pecking each other on the lips, holding hands, or having their arms around each other??

Well it depends how goodlooking they are.

I can do without ugly heterosexuals eating face in public, but then I'd feel the same way about ugly homos uvula wrestling in front of me.

	09-05-2005 21:07									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ok, but then why do you feel that they are not equitably treated? Secondly, why do you feel that a family with only one gender can be superior to another family with both? How so? How will you suffer? Answer the question. What are those standards used to decide whether a relationship is lifelong and monogamous? Why does it matter that a relationship must be both in order to be recognised?

You just never stop mistakenly or deliberately misinterpreting other people's arguments, do you?

Determining one's qualifications to be a good parent is not based on sexual orientation. There are gays who should never be parents, and there are gays who make wonderful parents -- same situation with straights.

Second, employment discrimination affects a person's economic livlihood, quality of life, and financial security. What kind of a dumb question is "But how do people suffer under employment discrimination?" anyway?


Straight people who marry for the right reason marry one another because they love one another and thus, are willing to invest each other's resources in a life-long relationship. Hence, they often decide to marry to publicly and legally establish this commitment, which will allow them to enjoy various economic and legal privileges that go with such a relationship.

Many gays often use the same standard -- because they love one another, and in turn, are willing to invest one another's resources in such a relationship.


It's amusing that I have to explain such basic, fundamental things that most people already understand when it comes to negative effects of employment discrimination, good parenting, and committed relationships.

	09-05-2005 21:07									#155
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Well it depends how goodlooking they are. I can do without ugly heterosexuals eating face in public, but then I'd feel the same way about ugly homos uvula wrestling in front of me.

When I use the phrase "pecking lips" that certainly does not refer to more prolonged, excessive kissing, such as "sucking/eating face."

	09-05-2005 21:18									#156
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Reach out and suck face!

	10-05-2005 01:51									#157
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You mean you're grossed out when you see a straight couple pecking each other on the lips, holding hands, or having their arms around each other??

No Mr fun i dont have a problem if gays do that either. It the utmost drastic displays that i would rather not watch. whether ur gay or straight.

	10-05-2005 02:11									#158
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quote: Aye, ok. but in many cases this loving of thy neighbour is unwanted then can't they just be left alone? Also just because you do believe in it doesn't mean everyone else wants too. If someone has happily decided that the good book is actually a crock of bs then just because you love your neighbour doesn't give you the right to interfer and offer your advice based on something that they don't accept.

That's fine. We have no problem leaving them alone. However, you asked why we cared about this sort of thing, and I have tried to show you why.

	10-05-2005 02:23									#159
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quote: BK, when you don't seperate church and state, history has shown that church comes away injured the main reason, I feel, for the rampant atheism in western europe is the state churchs (that existed until recently) there and that is not even considering that most major christian denominations have been persecuted against at one point or another (especally all the ones older than 150 years)

I haven't forgotten that. I think the churches are better for not being aligned with the state. It's just that sometimes there are secular side-effects, that do have consequences for the state, and these need to be considered.

These consequences are a valid rationale for public policy.

	10-05-2005 02:24									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski It the utmost drastic displays that i would rather not watch. whether ur gay or straight.

Any person with common sense and decency would agree with you on this.

	10-05-2005 02:30									#161
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quote: Judging by how easily Boris, che or I can explode your arguments here on 'Poly, I'd say homo or Commie trumps Christian sectary any day.

That's like celebrating after a routine tackle.

	10-05-2005 02:32									#162
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quote: Except that Ben is too cheap to part with a dollar

Yeah i suppose I deserved that.

	10-05-2005 02:32									#163
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Judging by how easily Boris, che or I can explode your arguments here on 'Poly, I'd say homo or Commie trumps Christian sectary any day.

I don't count?

	10-05-2005 02:40									#164
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quote: Determining one's qualifications to be a good parent is not based on sexual orientation. There are gays who should never be parents, and there are gays who make wonderful parents -- same situation with straights.

Okay, they why do you feel the current situation is inequitable? What would satisfy you as an equitable situation, bearing in mind that not everyone who wants a child should get one? Do you feel that the ratio should be identical, that adoption agencies should reject the same proportion of gay couples as they do straights?

quote: Second, employment discrimination affects a person's economic livlihood, quality of life, and financial security. What kind of a dumb question is "But how do people suffer under employment discrimination?" anyway?

'employment discrimination' is jargon, and masks poor thinking. I am trying to get at the heart of the matter, as to what constitutes such 'discrimination' and why the situation is so urgent that we must first deal with the discrimination before we understand a term like 'orientation'.

quote: Many gays often use the same standard -- because they love one another, and in turn, are willing to invest one another's resources in such a relationship.

Two qualifiers here. You said 'many' and 'often'. Should those gay people with different standards be denied marriage?

quote: It's amusing that I have to explain such basic, fundamental things that most people already understand when it comes to negative effects of employment discrimination, good parenting, and committed relationships.

Jargon masks peoples thinking, and as such, is a very effective tool. I want to get beyond that jargon, into the nitty-gritty.

	10-05-2005 03:18									#165
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I don't count?

You try to be too reasonable and moderate. This keeps you from going for the kill.

	10-05-2005 08:16									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 'employment discrimination' is jargon, and masks poor thinking. I am trying to get at the heart of the matter, as to what constitutes such 'discrimination' and why the situation is so urgent that we must first deal with the discrimination before we understand a term like 'orientation'.

Discrimination in a denying a person certain opportunity (in this specific case, career opportunities) based on arbitrary factors. Who a person ****s is irrelevant when handing out employment, unless that jobs happens to be for a prostitute. So I don’t see the relevance of your question regarding ‘orientation’, what is there to get to the bottom of?

	10-05-2005 09:23									#167
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You try to be too reasonable and moderate. This keeps you from going for the kill.

yessssssss . . . . . . .



I shall go work on my blood-thirsty, killer side now

	10-05-2005 13:31									#168
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quote: That's fine. We have no problem leaving them alone. However, you asked why we cared about this sort of thing, and I have tried to show you why.

Aye you have and thank you for that. However I don't quite believe the line we have no problem leaving them alone (not that I'm necessarily including you in the we bit here, generally I'll assume you do leave them alone except for instance in many threads like this one but its always lovely to have the opposite side presented and is one of the good things about this place and its not like you start a thread going off at gays afterall anyways)

	12-05-2005 19:05									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 'employment discrimination' is jargon, and masks poor thinking. I am trying to get at the heart of the matter, as to what constitutes such 'discrimination' and why the situation is so urgent that we must first deal with the discrimination before we understand a term like 'orientation'. Jargon masks peoples thinking, and as such, is a very effective tool.

No, you're really simply trying to say that anti-gay discrimination isn't that important. Which is interesting, because there are already laws on statute books dealing with unfair dismissal, or discrimination- you're really saying 'why apply those standards to gay men and lesbians ?'

Perhaps because they're citizens/ratepayers/taxpayers/parents too....


Oh, love the bit about jargon 'masking' thinking. Can't tell if it's meant as irony though....

	13-05-2005 01:33									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why the rush? Are gays being beaten in the streets? Are they denied education and representation? Are they segregated and spat upon? What is the pressing urgency behind this change, Mr. Fun?

as a social moderate (conservative on some social issues) I at the same time A. Sympathize with your question - whats the rush B. Wonder how fast a pace of change is a rush for you? Even slow change needs to happen at SOME deliberate speed. Perhaps this is a difference in Canadian and US perspectives - you are being presented with gay unions on a nationwide basis, IIUC. Here in the US only a few states are legalizing any form of gay union, and it is those opposed to change who are pushing to nationalize the issue.

From my POV, the current US approach is not only in keeping with federalism, but is the best way to approach a difficult social issue. There are many unknowns, of which the origin of homosexuality is only one. Another is whether there are actually any society negatives to gay unions, what effect they have on heterosexual marriage, whether gay "unions" or gay marriage have different effects, etc. To me using states as laboratories is the ideal way to gather some information on these questions, and see how general society adapts to these changes.

	13-05-2005 19:05									#171
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I just read this 2 days ago... I thought it was interesting:

quote: "Sexy" Smells Different for Gay, Straight Men, Study Says Stefan Lovgren for National Geographic News May 10, 2005 A new study shows that gay men respond differently from straight men when exposed to a suspected sexual stimulus found in male sweat. When homosexual men smelled the odor of male sweat—more specifically, a chemical in the male hormone testosterone—their brains responded similarly to those of women. The findings suggest that brain activity and sexual orientation are linked. It also supports an opinion held by most scientists, that people are born—not bred—gay. "This is one more line of evidence that there's a biological substring for sexual orientation," said Dean Hamer, a geneticist at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Hamer is the author of The Science of Desire: The Gay Gene and the Biology of Behavior. He was not involved in the research, which was conducted by scientists at Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden. The study was published today in the research journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. (...)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...0_gayscent.html

	13-05-2005 19:10									#172
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I am not convinced - find the gene for 'gay', and we'll talk. This just proves that the human nose can detect gender according to the smell of sweat.

	13-05-2005 19:38									#173
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I think it they used techniques to prove it was actually gayness that was able to be smelt.

I think gayness is a combination of poor genetics and the wrong conditions in the womb.

	13-05-2005 19:46									#174
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I wouldn't say that they are necessarily poor genetics (Actually, there really isn't such a thing. Genetics is completely neutral technically) since there actually is an advantage to homosexuality in natural selection.


Why? Altruism. A minor homosexual population means that there are adults that don't have to care for their own children; thus, they can care for other children and thus help the population survive and go to the next generation. Thus, it is actually an advantage for the community as a whole.

One more thing: While that article doesn't prove that homosexuality is genetic, it does prove that there is some biological basis for homosexuality. ...then again, there are biological basises for any type of personality trait. (You know, the term "disorder" really is a misnomer, as it's meant to be more of a description of a pattern of behavior that may or may not have positive/negative attributes which are only positive or negative when looking at the society at a whole.)

	13-05-2005 19:51									#175
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"A minor homosexual population means that there are adults that don't have to care for their own children; thus, they can care for other children and thus help the population survive and go to the next generation. Thus, it is actually an advantage for the community as a whole."

So wouldn't it be easier for them to be born infertile instead?

	14-05-2005 02:24									#176
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quote: as a social moderate (conservative on some social issues) I at the same time A. Sympathize with your question - whats the rush B. Wonder how fast a pace of change is a rush for you?

Well, the reading of preferences into the charter under section 15 happened in 1988.

So that was only 17 years ago.

Since then, they have gotten civil unions, recognition of civil unions as the functional equivilant of marriage, recognition of gay marriage through the courts, and now a bill in parliament.

Svend's bill to add hate crimes against gays to the criminal code got rammed through from a private member's bill to law a couple years ago.

In fact, not too long ago, they had a vote in the commons that passed with an overwhelming majority saying that they recognised the traditional definition of marriage. Most of these Liberals who voted yea there to support marriage are voting nay to change marriage.

So I ask again, what is the rush?

	14-05-2005 02:36									#177
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quote: Another is whether there are actually any society negatives to gay unions,

If a business is working, do you adopt the product sold by a vendor when you are unsure of what the negatives are?

	14-05-2005 02:57									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If a business is working, do you adopt the product sold by a vendor when you are unsure of what the negatives are?

If you were to make an analogy that has a tenuous link to the subject matter...


Oh, wait. You are!

Carry on then.

	14-05-2005 03:10									#179
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The point is this, Jag.

You buy the product because of the merits of the product, and how they can improve how you do business. The same is true here. The merits of gay marriage are not debated, only their lack of negatives.

	14-05-2005 03:38									#180
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Apolyton is such a sausage-fest.