08-05-2005 19:56									#31
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This is our subway



It's making money hand over fist.

	08-05-2005 19:56									#32
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Well, when the line splits in tiny splineters in the faraway suburbs, it's pretty normal. You don't want a large train to stop in Littlehousetonshire's station every five minutes, when there's hardly any passenger.

	08-05-2005 20:23									#33
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HK metro:


Spiffor:

It's not "tiny splinters in faraway suburbs".

If you have shared track of two lonesat a certain place, that means that the entire rest of the lines will suffer. That doesn't have to be a village. It can also be a number of dense suburbs.

For example, look at the tube map. The yellow line is obviously very important. Now what do you get due to the fact that it shares rail with the pink line? - the pink line, that doesn't exactly service the end of the world ( zone 2, or whatever) - suffers rather harshly from having to share the track. I've waited for a train to pass, myself once when I was in London. This is unacceptable in metro, IMHO.

Last edited by Az on 08-05-2005 at 22:09

	08-05-2005 21:16									#34
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The London Underground is appallingly inefficient – which is no surprise given that it is British.

I couldn't believe how nice the TTC was when I got here.

	08-05-2005 21:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is our subway It's making money hand over fist.

Awww, isn't that cute

Here's London's (all of it):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/pdfdocs/lon_con.pdf

It should work better than it does, but it is extensive...

	08-05-2005 21:58									#36
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Stop bragging. molly already posted one.

Aggie, what's TTC?

	08-05-2005 22:04									#37
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Yeah but that one's crap, it doesn't cover the rail system which is also very extensive...

	08-05-2005 22:07									#38
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The London Underground could do with a lot of work to modernise it, but it would cost many, many billions of pounds to do...

	08-05-2005 22:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Az BUILD SUBWAYS, B*TCH

Ironically, "Roger Rabbit" bests explains the primary source of LA's public transportation problem. Post-WWII, we had the redlines running all over the city. My first word was "streetcar." While the in the movie, it was Cloverleaf which sought to shut down the redline, in real life, it was General Tires...so there'd be more commuting, more cars and hence more tires.

Problem No. 2 is earthquakes. We are second in area for US cities, following only Houston. A spread out population means reduced efficency for public transportation systems.

For the past decade, we've been trying to build back our transportation infrastructure, leading to Problem 3. Politicians redrew the map, making the rail lines follow political dictates rather than demographic dictates.

And of course, there's the ever-present Problem 4. We're one of only three states which requires a super majority to raise taxes. Thus, it is very difficult to raise the funds we need. On the map above, the eastward extension of the goldline and greenline have been put on hold due to lack of funding.

Hong Kong public transportation

	08-05-2005 22:09									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Yeah but that one's crap, it doesn't cover the rail system which is also very extensive...

To continue this point...almost the whole of South East London is missing from this and large swathes of Outer London in the rest of the city. We don't have any underground down this way (Dauphin was saying it is related to the nature of the ground here) but as you can see from my pdf map, there are rail services instead. Although not TFL per se they are still classed as the network...

	08-05-2005 22:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Az BUILD SUBWAYS, B*TCH

They have a subway system in LA. Do they even have a subway system any where in Israel?

	08-05-2005 23:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Az entirely inadequate for a metropolitan area with 14 mil people in the met area, and 4 mil people in the core. Only one of those line is subway.

Well DUH. You're telling this to us people that live here like that some sort of new information we really need to know? But our subway is only 10 years old and is still a work in progress.

It doesn't make sense to put a subway EVERYWHERE, that's just wasting money, and they take longer to build. Those other lines are elevated and take advantage of existing infrastructure.

	08-05-2005 23:07									#43
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tram apologetics.

trams have plenty of trouble. yours also seem rather slow.

	09-05-2005 00:23									#44
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You don't like mass transite unless it is a subway?

	09-05-2005 00:29									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi What's wrong with internet hunting? If the animal is your property, why shouldn't have the right to let people use the internet to shoot at it?

because hunting in that way is unsportsmanlike.

If you are going to kill an animal, I expect you to eat it.

	09-05-2005 00:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: And by the way, LA does have subways. entirely inadequate for a metropolitan area with 14 mil people in the met area, and 4 mil people in the core. (Thanks UrbanRail.net ) Only one of those line is subway.

Holy crap! That's about the same as Boston's, and we have roughly 2 million people, not 14 million! (so similar, Chinatown is on the Orange Line on both - except you call yours the "Gold Line"...pansies)

	09-05-2005 00:39									#47
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with threadjacks

	09-05-2005 01:33									#48
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quote: You don't like mass transite unless it is a subway?

Oh, I do like all sorts of mass transit. But I think that cities with 2 million and higher populations in the metro should base their public transport on a strong subway/other separated rapid rail, core, with trams, LRTs and buses riding shotgun.

If we're talking cities with ~1 million in metro area, usually LRTs are enough ( unless we have special terrain conditions, where subways are needed )

	09-05-2005 01:56									#49
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous . . . except you call yours the "Gold Line"...pansies)

pssst: We're the Golden State.

	09-05-2005 10:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Az tram apologetics. trams have plenty of trouble. yours also seem rather slow.

I guess money grows on trees.

	09-05-2005 10:31									#51
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No it doesn't and that's precisely why one should invest more in urban transport, since in the case of urban transport, underinvestment means the loss of billions.

	09-05-2005 10:42									#52
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You keep preaching to the choir, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.


In any case, constructing the amount of subway needed to cover the entire city would total over a trillion dollars. It's just not feasible or realistic.

	09-05-2005 10:48									#53
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A)You don't have to cover it all via subway.

Subway for the city center, and cancel small streets for the outskirts, and let the trains run there at fast speeds.

B) did it hurt to pull that figure out?

	09-05-2005 10:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Az A)You don't have to cover it all via subway. Subway for the city center, and cancel small streets for the outskirts, and let the trains run there at fast speeds.

Uhhh, I just told you that, and that's what we do here. The city center already has subways. The outlying areas have elevated trains that join the subway.

quote: B) did it hurt to pull that figure out?

Give me a better one, then we'll talk.

Why you so concerned with us anyway? Are you doing a study of the glorious Tel-Aviv subway system???

	09-05-2005 11:33									#55
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I don't know why cities in the US hesitate to build heavy rail. Heavy rail raises property values around stations by about 20% in the Washington area (including single-family homes). And taxes are collected at the local level mostly through property taxes...

Washington could use at least 3 more lines to our current 5.

	09-05-2005 11:34									#56
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quote: Uhhh, I just told you that, and that's what we do here. The city center already has subways. The outlying areas have elevated trains that join the subway.

Erm, no, I've seen your system, and it's NOT what I am talking about :
a) subway should cover more of the city center- you have like a single line there. This will promote growth and *gasp* inner city revival ( coupled with other projects, of course)
b) your trams aren't rapid enough. They should be rapid, and completely separated from traffic, just like subway is.

quote: Give me a better one, then we'll talk.

17 Miles of subway with stations cost 4.5$ Bill USD, IIRC - and it was criticized as very inefficient construction. ~250 Mil per mile.

Baltimore metro line 15.5 miles cost ~1.4 Bill USD. ( it's elevated, not ground level ) ~100Mil per mile ( 80s dollars)

Assuming costs of ~ 150M per mile and that LA metro needs 12 lines of metro costing 20 miles long each, for example - 240 miles. ( or a different set up, with longer lines, for example).

That's 60 Billion dollars. That's not an exorbitant sum of money fo a 15-20 year long project that will be supported by federal and state money, and will have also the financial support not only of the city of LA, but also neighbouring local authorities - a project that will build new arteries to help the clogged freeways of yours ( That I really like, btw)

quote: Why you so concerned with us anyway? Are you doing a study of the glorious Tel-Aviv subway system???

Actually, no. I am concerned with you because our moronic halfwits monkey-brain government worships yours. That's why Tel-Aviv doesn't have a normal subway, yet, and the one that's planned will be teh suxor, with major streets having two lanes taken from them.

	09-05-2005 11:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is our subway

How do you play Mornington Crescent?

	09-05-2005 11:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't know why cities in the US hesitate to build heavy rail. Heavy rail raises property values around stations by about 20% in the Washington area (including single-family homes). And taxes are collected at the local level mostly through property taxes... Washington could use at least 3 more lines to our current 5.

DanS.... you commie....

	09-05-2005 11:47									#59
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The 23-mile orange line extension to Dulles Airport is expected to cost $4 billion, or about $175 million per mile. That's mostly above-ground.

$250 million per below-ground mile seems like a bargain in comparison.

	09-05-2005 11:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Az DanS.... you commie....

Always remember that almost every single US city is at heart a land speculation. Trying to sell a subway on any other grounds besides land values is foolish.