08-05-2005 23:59									#31
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I found this link -

http://impact.typepad.com/articles/...heat_subsi.html

While it has little to do with EU farming as such, there is a mention of farm subsities around the world.

	09-05-2005 00:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia in switzerland its legal to have marijuana plants, but its illegal to smoke it.

"Why no officer. I just like landscaping my yard with marijuana plants."

	09-05-2005 00:31									#33
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While in Belgium it's (semi) legal to smoke pot but illegal to grow it.

	09-05-2005 00:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Ah, alva, also a supporter of the compulsory personal ID if I recall correctly. Well, at least you're consistent in your anti liberty stances

	09-05-2005 23:08									#35
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Man, the EU is really f*cked up...

subsidies:

sucking up to uncompetitive farmers:

	10-05-2005 00:42									#36
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Lemme see if I got this straight...

France and Germany have roughly the same area, geography, and climate as the NE US (i.e., north of the Potomac and Ohio rivers, and east of the Mississippi - NOT especially good for growing wheat). But France and Germany produce more wheat than the entire US. And the EU as a whole (NOT counting any of the countires in eastern europe) produces more wheat than the entire FSU?

http://www.usda.gov/nass/pubs/agr04/04_ch1.pdf
(see p. I-8)
If I was a wheat farmer just about anywhere else in the world I would be seriously pissed.

	10-05-2005 01:40									#37
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I don't know about those figures. Could be true.

My main concern here is freedom. EU is big on rule of law, and laws clearly guarantee freedom of enterprise. A country can do a lot of things to limit freedoms, but usually only in case of war or threat to public safety.

So how then can EU forbid citizens to plant vineyards is beyond me. It's hard to believe it would do that literally. There must be a catch of some sort. Really strong incentives to comply with quotas, but without outright bans.

What is the case is not easy to distinguish from the online documents I have read.

	10-05-2005 02:20									#38
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I'm always stunned at the amount of political power farmers have in France, and apparently, the entire EU. WTF's up with that? Why didn't y'all automate them into insignificance earlier this century like we did here?

I'm thinking about it and the last time I remember a presidential campaign that actively sought out farming votes as a significant block was Truman in '48.

	10-05-2005 02:52									#39
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We don't get it either, they are very well organised, I guess that makes the difference.

	10-05-2005 02:52									#40
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Farmers have pretty decent pull here in the US as well. Look at our agg subsidies and Iowa's position in the primaries means that ethanol subsidies ain't going anywhere. Not anywhere near as powerful in Europe, but still they have power in the States.

	10-05-2005 03:54									#41
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Ag subsidies and Iowa's (declining) prominence in the primaries is nowhere near comparable to the things discussed in this thread.

	10-05-2005 04:08									#42
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quote: According to estimates by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), EU subsidies and other transfers from governments of member nations accounted for 35 percent of farm revenue in 2001, compared with 21 percent in the United States.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/Eu...olicyCommon.htm


That's why I'm not opposed to subsidies per se. US does them too.

I'm opposed to regulations limiting my enterpreneurial freedom. That's on principle of course, I don't plan to be a farmer actually

	10-05-2005 04:49									#43
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quote: "Why no officer. I just like landscaping my yard with marijuana plants."

actually, yeah, the last time i was there, the local paper had on the front page the story about a guy who had hella plants and the cops showed up but couldnt arrest him cuz you can grow them, and then were was a mini scandal i guess.

	10-05-2005 06:59									#44
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quote: Europe had enough food to eat. In fact it had so much that farmers were going bankrupt due to low prices so France hatched the CAP, got the Germans to agree to it, and then farmers became the biggest budget pigs in Europe.

True.

quote: Ag subsidies and Iowa's (declining) prominence in the primaries is nowhere near comparable to the things discussed in this thread.

Do they take 1/3 of the federal budget?

	10-05-2005 07:08									#45
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God no. Total (state and federal) US ag subsidies are about $20 billion (PDF), or one percent of the US Federal budget. I've seen figures where the EU figure is 6 times that of the US, or about $120 billion, but that is probably including the individual nations as well as the EU itself.

	10-05-2005 08:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka See Spiffor with 897234 pages of documents proving this is not what it smells and looks like .

I know very little about the CAP.

Agriculture may be indeed a field where the EU isn't on the side of savage competition - I don't know. However, the other fields (industry and services, which concern many more people) are brutally hit by free-marketerr policies.

The EU is built on the principle of "free and undistorted competition". This means that you can produce an industrial good at the price you want, and sell it wherever you want in the EU (as long as it fits the Europe-wide standards). You can produce the service at the price you want, and see if somebody buys it. This is why Dell's hotline for Germany is located in the Czech Republic (or why EADS' internal hotline is located in Stuttgart ). This is why there is a massive industrial displacement from western Europe to Eastern Europe.

Vetlegion, unless you believe that any market regulation immediately means our horrible communist tendencies, or unless you want to work in non-mediterranean agricultural production, you should really not be afraid of the EU. It follows the neoliberal lessons like a zealous pupil

	10-05-2005 09:32									#47
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it doesnt matter - the CAP literally kills developing world citizens. try that for morality or justice.

	10-05-2005 10:50									#48
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Here in California, some of the world's best farmland is being used to grow suburbs. So I guess there is some value to keeping those farm subsidies.

	10-05-2005 11:04									#49
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or rice, in an area that has droughts every 5 years.

	10-05-2005 16:22									#50
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion So how then can EU forbid citizens to plant vineyards is beyond me. It's hard to believe it would do that literally. There must be a catch of some sort.

It doesnt forbit you from growing/producing whatever you want. and yes there is a catch

which is....

quote: Really strong incentives to comply with quotas, but without outright bans.

	10-05-2005 16:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Here in California, some of the world's best farmland is being used to grow suburbs. So I guess there is some value to keeping those farm subsidies.

So true.

	10-05-2005 17:15									#52
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Paiktis, yeah, but has anyone ever ... tried? Pushed to the limit? Confronted the beast?

If they have, they must be in the dungeons 300 meters below Bruxless now, for I have never heard of them.

	10-05-2005 17:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT God no. Total (state and federal) US ag subsidies are about $20 billion (PDF), or one percent of the US Federal budget. I've seen figures where the EU figure is 6 times that of the US, or about $120 billion, but that is probably including the individual nations as well as the EU itself.

As far as I know, CAP is all there is. 50 billion annualy. Countries are not allowed to boost that further. I may be wrong though, this ain't my field.

	10-05-2005 17:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Here in California, some of the world's best farmland is being used to grow suburbs. So I guess there is some value to keeping those farm subsidies.

No.

	10-05-2005 17:26									#55
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Kuciwalker, the huge number of icons under your nickname... that's some kind of joke, right?

	10-05-2005 17:49									#56
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Kuciwalker, the huge number of icons under your nickname... that's some kind of joke, right?

It's for him to recognize his posts easily when avatars are down.

	10-05-2005 21:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Paiktis, yeah, but has anyone ever ... tried? Pushed to the limit? Confronted the beast?

well one can start growing something that the EU is not wanting if he thinks he can pull it off, meaning if he thinks he can get a good price for his product from the market. because he won't be getting any subsidies for it.

now if he wants to keep producing what he is producing and he wants the EU to give subcidies to it (or not cut those that is already giving) he can go out on the streets, protest etc. This happens all the time. the result varies of course
then his gov. (and others if facing the same problem) should put pressure on the EU to listen. now how much this happens.... it is another issue

	10-05-2005 21:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It's for him to recognize his posts easily when avatars are down.

That, and it's a joke. And I don't actually feel like going through the list and leaving all of them

	10-05-2005 21:28									#59
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i should point out that "now how much this happens.... it is another issue" applies to both his gov. and the EU. national govs are known for scapegoating a great deal on the commission/EU. i.e. "i fought for you but the bad EU didnt let me do that" whereas it was the national gov. that wanted what the EU is doing (and probably lobbied the EU to take it on) - this usually happens behind closed doors. (coreper II and then council of ministers). so always check your gov. first

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 10-05-2005 at 21:36

	10-05-2005 21:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'm thinking about it and the last time I remember a presidential campaign that actively sought out farming votes as a significant block was Truman in '48.

The whole point of Republicans reintroducing farm subsidies in the US af ew years back was to buy the vote in the farm states. That was 2004's election not 1948.