10-05-2005 15:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Ignoring genocide. What about that currency speculator who speculated Britain into a recession on 'Black Wednesday' to make a billion for himself. Can't remember his name.

George Soros. The British government had an untenable peg to the other European currencies and the pound was valuated much to high compared to the market fundimentals. I wouldn't blame George Soros for taking an obvious bet against he pound but I would blame the government for making the bet in the first place.

	10-05-2005 16:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh I don't understand why people think that Pol Pot committed genocide. What nation did he try to kill off He certainly was a horrible horrible murderous bastard, but I don't get the genocide charge.

Are you serious?

quote: The Cambodian Killing Fields On April 17th, 1975 the Khmer Rouge, a communist guerrilla group led by Pol Pot, took power in Phnom Penh, the capital of Cambodia. They forced all city dwellers into the countryside and to labor camps. During their rule, it is estimated that 2 million Cambodians died by starvation, torture or execution. 2 million Cambodians represented approximately 30% of the Cambodian population during that time. The Khmer Rouge turned Cambodia to year zero. They banned all institutions, including stores, banks, hospitals, schools, religion, and the family. Everyone was forced to work 12 - 14 hours a day, every day. Children were separated from their parents to work in mobile groups or as soldiers. People were fed one watery bowl of soup with a few grains of rice thrown in. Babies, children, adults and the elderly were killed everywhere. The Khmer Rouge killed people if they didn’t like them, if didn’t work hard enough, if they were educated, if they came from different ethnic groups, or if they showed sympathy when their family members were taken away to be killed. All were killed without reason. Everyone had to pledge total allegiance to Angka, the Khmer Rouge government. It was a campaign based on instilling constant fear and keeping their victims off balance. After the Vietnamese invaded and liberated the Cambodian people from the Khmer Rouge, 600,000 Cambodians fled to Thai border camps. Ten million landmines were left in the ground, one for every person in Cambodia. The United Nations installed the largest peacekeeping mission in the world in Cambodia in 1991 to ensure free and fair elections after the withdrawal of the Vietnamese troops. Cambodia was turned upside down during the Khmer Rouge years and the country has the daunting task of healing physically, mentally and economically.

	10-05-2005 16:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Wha?

most the time when someone conquored, they would

kill most/all the men (those that weren't killed were enslaved)

killed/raped the women (and enslaved, of course)

killed/enslaved the children (depending on the number of new slaves they were getting)

if that isn't genocide, I don't know what it

JM

	10-05-2005 16:35									#34
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quote: Are you serious?

Yes. Killing many people =! genocide.

quote: kill most/all the men (those that weren't killed were enslaved)

The prevalence of that sort of practice is generally very exaggerated. There are many cases in which there were massive cultural shifts in populations due to conquest with surprisingly small shifts in the population's genetics (for example, despite the almost-complete eradication of pre-Anglo Saxon culture in England, the amount of surviving non-Germanic DNA in England is very very very high).

	10-05-2005 16:39									#35
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that was actually fairly recently in history

you can actually date to leaders of empires arround ~1000 BC that started to enslave or incorporate mostly, instead of kill mostly

Jon Miller

	10-05-2005 16:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Yes. Killing many people =! genocide.

Then read the killing fields article I posted.

To deny historical fact is senseless.

.

	10-05-2005 16:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Then read the killing fields article I posted. To deny historical fact is senseless. .

I don't deny any historical facts, just a surreal misuse of the term genocide.

Genocide is the attempted eradication of a people/ethnic group/nation/whatever. Exactly which people/ethnic group/nation/whatever did Pol Pot attempt to eradicate?

	10-05-2005 16:46									#38
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IIRC used definitions include not only full extermination, but also the "partly" eradication of a certain group. That would fit for Pol Pot's doings.

	10-05-2005 16:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro IIRC used definitions include not only full extermination, but also the "partly" eradication of a certain group. That would fit for Pol Pot's doings.

Which group?
Specifically which group did Pol Pot commit genocide against?

	10-05-2005 16:50									#40
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Don't get swamped in the terminology.
What he done was more like social cleansing...In no way more desirable!

Pol Pot tried to engineer a revolution, and done it in a way that led to massive death.

Can this be excused? If you think so, then you are just as monstrous.

Would you try to deliver a newborn baby with an kick to the mother's stomach?
Even if you intentions were good, you still are a killer.

Same principle as Pol Pot. His distorted views caused killing.

He unleashed a killing machine onto innocent people?
Who the hell gave him the right to do this?

Until you see the millions of corpses, I guess you have no clue.

.

	10-05-2005 16:52									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Which group? Specifically which group did Pol Pot commit genocide against?

Cambodians?

	10-05-2005 16:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Don't get swamped in the terminology. What he done was more like social cleansing...In no way more desirable! Pol Pot tried to engineer a revolution, and done it in a way that led to massive death. Can this be excused? If you think so, then you are just as monstrous. Would you try to deliver a newborn baby with an kick to the mother's stomach? Even if you intentions were good, you still are a killer. Same principle as Pol Pot. His distorted views caused killing. He unleashed a killing machine onto innocent people? Who the hell gave him the right to do this? Until you see the millions of corpses, I guess you have no clue. .

I am quite knowledgable about the specifics of Pol Pots atrocities. I'm just very very confused why so many people incorrectly label said atrocities genocide.

	10-05-2005 16:53									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Cambodians?

How the hell can you commit genocide against a group that you're part of? That's just stupid.

	10-05-2005 16:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Genocide is the attempted eradication of a people/ethnic group/nation/whatever. Exactly which people/ethnic group/nation/whatever did Pol Pot attempt to eradicate?

the intellectuals

JM

	10-05-2005 16:54									#45
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Cambodians?

quote: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

He was trying to kill all Cambodians?

	10-05-2005 16:55									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the intellectuals JM

Sinces when were intellectuals a "geno"? Whiping out all of the intellectuals of a certain group is certainly horrible, but it does not constitute genocide.

	10-05-2005 16:55									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh I am quite knowledgable about the specifics of Pol Pots atrocities. I'm just very very confused why so many people incorrectly label said atrocities genocide.

More importantly:

Do you denounce his actions?

.

	10-05-2005 16:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling More importantly: Do you denounce his actions? .

Of course. I have Cambodian members of my extended family that went through absolute hell because of Pol Pot, but that doesn't have anything to do with wether his actions constituted genocide or not.

	10-05-2005 17:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. He was trying to kill all Cambodians?

As said before, genocide is not only the try or even the will of full extermination. Pol Pot was certaily willing to exterminate part of his people, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

	10-05-2005 17:02									#50
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quote: As said before, genocide is not only the try or even the will of full extermination.

There's no such thing as partial extermination. You have no ****ing clue what you're talking about.

	10-05-2005 17:02									#51
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quote: Utter destruction: annihilation, eradication, extinction, extinguishment, extirpation, liquidation, obliteration

	10-05-2005 17:03									#52
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From http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

quote: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

	10-05-2005 17:04									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro As said before, genocide is not only the try or even the will of full extermination. Pol Pot was certaily willing to exterminate part of his people, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.

So killing a large portion of a certain ethnic group automatically constitutes genocide even when the person doing is has nothing against said ethnic group qua ethnic group?????? That makes no sense. Thats like saying that because the allies killed a lot of Germans in WW II that the allies committed genocide against the Germans. Actually it makes less sense than that, since Pol Pot was Cambodian.

	10-05-2005 17:05									#54
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Ask the UN

	10-05-2005 17:05									#55
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quote: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

That's idiotic. Under that definition every murder is genocide.

	10-05-2005 17:06									#56
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According to that definition if I kill a black man I'm guilty of genocide against blacks.



Pol Pot's aim was not destruction of the Cambodian people for the sake of destruction. He had other, political motives for killing what were, in his mind, a segment of the population which was standing in the way of his revolution.

That is the standard which needs to be applied.

	10-05-2005 17:07									#57
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OTOH, if only full extermination counts nothing would be unless you really kill really *all* of the group in question. Of course in some cases you can know about the intent to kill all, but in others you probably couldn't

	10-05-2005 17:08									#58
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Whereas Hitler was killing Jews because he thought Jews were the problem.

See the difference?

	10-05-2005 17:10									#59
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro OTOH, if only full extermination counts nothing would be unless you really kill really *all* of the group in question. Of course in some cases you can know about the intent to kill all, but in others you probably couldn't

Intent is the backbone of the definition of genocide.

Killing Cambodians because they're cambodian is genocide when it reaches a large enough scale. Killing 2 million cambodians because they're guilty of crimes against the revolution or whatever is just mass murder.

	10-05-2005 17:10									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro OTOH, if only full extermination counts nothing would be unless you really kill really *all* of the group in question. Of course in some cases you can know about the intent to kill all, but in others you probably couldn't

A definition that makes sense would state that genocide is killing large numbers of a national/ethnical/racial (since when is whiping out a religious group genocide????) solely because they are members of said national/ethnical/racial group. Just killing them doesn't count or you fail to differentiate murder from genocide.